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Ways to slot double B?



 
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VintageFTW
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:08 am    Post subject: Ways to slot double B? Reply with quote

I have always had (since I could hit double C at least) trouble slotting B below double C and I persist to have this issue. Do you people have any suggestions for this? I don't really have any issue with double C and I can force Bb to bend to my will, but B just won't slot. I have had some limited success with 123, but not near as stable as I would like. How can I overcome this? (Of course other than practicing and parsing it out myself).
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've found horns as old as you list in your signature to be difficult to play over hi c and just squeaky above that. Does this issue occur to you with more modern equipment?? I have a 20's model large bore Liberty that will only do a weak hi d for me, but my new eclipse rings a hi g. Same player same mp different horns. Newer horns just seem to play easier in hi register. I can't do more than get a dbl c to squeak and this issue if not the horn isn't something I can speak to.
Rod
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VintageFTW
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, I don't know how my upper register is on a modern horn. I've never really gotten a chance to play any other than a small handful of old Strads, a Jupiter 1602, and some Bach Omega's. Perhaps I should sell some of my less used horns and go for a modern one. Right now my main horn is a most probably pre 1920 Harry. B. Jay. Columbia Model. I mean, they were renowned for being fantastic horns and were played by the likes of Satchmo and Harry James, but I guess that was before the extreme upper register became a focus point. My main issue is that a new instrument is very far outside my budget and I don't have anywhere close that I can try a wide range of horns.
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1880's Thompson & Odell Boston
1880's L&H "Henry Gunckel" Sole Agent Cornet
1903 L&H "Improved Own Make"
Early 1900's Marceau Cornet *B&F Stencil
1922 Holton-Clarke Cornet
1954 Elkhart built by Buescher 37b
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deleted_user_02066fd
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Ways to slot double B? Reply with quote

VintageFTW wrote:
I have always had (since I could hit double C at least) trouble slotting B below double C and I persist to have this issue. Do you people have any suggestions for this? I don't really have any issue with double C and I can force Bb to bend to my will, but B just won't slot. I have had some limited success with 123, but not near as stable as I would like. How can I overcome this? (Of course other than practicing and parsing it out myself).

That's a problem I'll never have! I'd get a nosebleed in that thin air!
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most trumpet players capable of hammering some solid high notes have a note or two which refuse to release. I kinda like this term rather than "wont slot". Because by using the term "refuses to release" we're getting closer to the cause of the problem.

My old sticking note was G# above high C. Refused to blow. And sometimes the A above which did come out went almost uncomfortably sharp. So really the problem wasnt just my G# or A flat but s short range of tones just above high G. After careful analysis of this matter I reasoned that some kind of natural ""detente" was being created. The only cause of this problem appeared to be defined in two parts,

1. Arm pressure was being increased so much that my upper lip was getting inflexible and distorted. And,

2. The build up of air pressure worked its force against my upper lip until the point where this lip slightly inverted a bit ("rolled out" very slightly in response to air pressure). During the course of this upper lip inversion some of the notes above my high G would emanate but one or more could not.

The fix came in two directions.

A. Developing more facial muscle strength so that I could blow high notes without so much arm pressure.

B. Learning to blow high notes much more softly.

While it is great to blow with a big sound in the upper register it is more beneficial to practice these notes at soft to squeaker volume. When the volume comes down it forces the corners of the embouchure to take over. As these and other facial muscles begin to take up the slack where strong arm pressure once prevailed? The described "upper lip inversion" no longer occurs. Or if it does it happens later in the gig.

But I have a couple other tricks which may help to some limited capacity. Regardless give the above advice some serious study.

Trick 1: experiment with half valve combinations while playing the note which refuses to shine. Believe it or not the half valve does not make such really high notes go funky. The pitches above high C tend to more closely resemble sirens anyway. About the only priblem with half valving a note in this region is that it may cut the volume off a bit. Perhaps a microphone manipulation can offset this acoustical variance.

Trick 2: Switch to an embouchure better suited to seamless high notes. This is often easier said than done. Often there are drawbacks to this choice. Results being mixed. Usually resulting in more failures than success. I'm actually in the process of pulling this off now. But it is not for sissies. That and it takes lots of perseverance and patience.
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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine is Bb I use 123. I play it softer and have to manipulate pitch as you would similar to bending notes. My guess is your B sits way high and does not slot. You are going to need to learn how to bring it down to, or close to pitch. Playing it softer helps you make micro adjustments and manipulate your tongue, air and chops to achieve what will be limited success at first. As you work on this over weeks and months your understanding of how to make this happen will increase. I recommend octave slurs or arpeggios to lock the pitch in your ear as you ascend. This has helped me hope it has value for you.

Best, Jon
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have the chops to play a B then hearing it will definitely be helpful in being able to play it.

As mentioned, octaves is one way that works.

I like slurring up 5ths and 4ths to get to the note. Start on a low B and quarter note slur to the next F#, B, F#, B (just under high C), F# and hold on this note for a couple of beats and then go to the B (take a breath along the way if needed). When Doc played the famous Eb above double C on A Song For You at the end of the cadenza, he sat on the Bb above high C for just an extra second and then let it go up to the Eb.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some years back I was talking to John Skinner about ways to improve my playable range. He told me something that was pretty startling to me at the time. He said he could play DHC no problem but he tried a different mouthpiece (didn't ask what model) and it added a single note to his range: the A below DHC. He said on his usual mouthpiece (a 10-1/2C with a custom bend) he could not play that note because it was very squirrely and and for years it wouldn't slot no matter what he tried.

So if all else fails, there could be a mismatch in the equipment you're using, but try all else first before walking that path.
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before anyone cries foul for my suggestion. I have one word, perturbations. Yes, we've had customers with similar response issues in the extreme high register that I cannot play test (my range ends at G above high C) that were solved when the trumpet and mouthpiece are "dialed in".

Perturbations in the bore come in many forms, be it valve misalignment, improper mouthpiece receiver gap*, lack of concetricity, excess burrs and solder blobs, out of round tubing cross section, all compounded can be a deal breaker. It would make sense to get your equipment evaluated by a seasoned technician.

Having 41 years of brass repair experience, I'd be happy to inspect your trumpet for free and provide suggestions for improvement(s).

*As an authorized dealer for Reeves products, we stock the entire range of sleeves in full, half and quarter sizes. Conversion of shanks can be done on site while you wait or turned around in a day when shipped in.

I hope this is helpful.
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a follow up to me previous post, I have a true story about a player with a Bobby Shew model Yamaha trumpet that he could reliably play double B natural and double A, but not the Bb in between. Since I'm not capable of playing above a G he demonstrated by playing A, Bb and B natural. No doubt there was something making the Bb unstable. Then after our precision valve alignment, with average corrections up and down of .007", he was able to play his Bb as reliably as his A and B natural. Hearing it with my own ears clearly demonstrated the negative effects of perturbations to the bore caused by valve misalignment and the possibilities when these deviations are corrected.

I hope this is helpful .
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James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
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www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
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VintageFTW
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is great info! It may be a combination of my equipment (definitely) and myself. I have little issue with double C and as of recently have discovered that Double D is oddly enough easier. As for equipment, right now I am playing a 1910's - early 1920's Harry B. Jay Columbia Model that has yet to go to my tech, so I know it has issues. Coupled with that is my 70's Schilke 13a4a, so I have zero gap.
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1880's Thompson & Odell Boston
1880's L&H "Henry Gunckel" Sole Agent Cornet
1903 L&H "Improved Own Make"
Early 1900's Marceau Cornet *B&F Stencil
1922 Holton-Clarke Cornet
1954 Elkhart built by Buescher 37b
...And many more
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Becker wrote:
...perturbations...


Now there's a word I don't use every day.

But seriously, that is an encouraging story to read, knowing that simple valve alignments can make a huge difference for a player.
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Joe Bowen
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of my horn and mouthpiece combos will slot cetain notes, others won’t. My favorite horn has one hell of a time with Bb, yet other notes around it are blistering.
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Becker wrote:
As a follow up to me previous post, I have a true story about a player with a Bobby Shew model Yamaha trumpet that he could reliably play double B natural and double A, but not the Bb in between. Since I'm not capable of playing above a G he demonstrated by playing A, Bb and B natural. No doubt there was something making the Bb unstable. Then after our precision valve alignment, with average corrections up and down of .007", he was able to play his Bb as reliably as his A and B natural. Hearing it with my own ears clearly demonstrated the negative effects of perturbations to the bore caused by valve misalignment and the possibilities when these deviations are corrected.

I hope this is helpful .


This. Thank you Mr. Becker!
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Coolcol123
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, very useful
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VintageFTW
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, this has been very helpful. Not only is my original question being answered further, but this is also just a very helpful thing to know. Thank you.

As a follow up I have switched from my Schilke being my main mouthpiece. I now play on my New York Bach 17C1 and it works rather well in my Harry B. Jay. I think the main contributing factor to this is that the 17C1 is a period mouthpiece that most likely would have been used in one of these horns. I also notice though that the shank on the 17C1 is a good bit larger than any of my other mouthpieces, so that probably gives me something resembling a gap of any sort. I use the New York Bach for concert band, but for big band I have been trying to get adjusted to my Ratzenberger Jet Tone BC. It is a really nicely playing mouthpiece, but it is very unforgiving if I don't set things up right. As for the gap on that, it appears to have some sort of a gap. All I know is that it sits in my receiver very firmly, so that's good at least. I also occasionally use my Rudy Mück 18M Cushion Rim, and that fits my receiver very firmly. The Rudy Mück is also a period mouthpiece I suppose, so I guess that has some contributing factor towards why it fits my horn well.

Anyways, my Columbia Model still hasn't gone to my repair guy (Rich Ita), so everything is still a bit out of wack. I know the valves are not in what one would call ideal alignment and that the receiver is worn. It would probably also be safe to assume that there are several other things about that horn unbeknownst to me, the least of which is that it needs a chem clean.
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1880's Thompson & Odell Boston
1880's L&H "Henry Gunckel" Sole Agent Cornet
1903 L&H "Improved Own Make"
Early 1900's Marceau Cornet *B&F Stencil
1922 Holton-Clarke Cornet
1954 Elkhart built by Buescher 37b
...And many more
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