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mcgee New Member
Joined: 16 May 2015 Posts: 10 Location: New Jersey
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Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:44 am Post subject: Pines of Rome buccine parts: slur or not? |
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In the last movement after rehearsal 20, measures 5, 6, 11 and 12, the parts have a slur into the first note of the triplet. The score does not.
Most recordings I've heard omit the slurs, but Toscanini -- who conducted the American premiere -- has them slur it, and in a pronounced way.
What's the consensus? _________________ Tom McGee
South Orange, NJ
Broadway Bach Ensemble
Brooklyn Symphony
Amore Opera |
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mhenrikse Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jul 2009 Posts: 162
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Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:43 am Post subject: Re: Pines of Rome buccine parts: slur or not? |
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mcgee wrote: | In the last movement after rehearsal 20, measures 5, 6, 11 and 12, the parts have a slur into the first note of the triplet. The score does not.
Most recordings I've heard omit the slurs, but Toscanini -- who conducted the American premiere -- has them slur it, and in a pronounced way.
What's the consensus? |
No slur in any of the times I've played it with professional orchestras. |
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trpt2 Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2003 Posts: 165 Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Tom, it's been a long time!!
Tongued, definitely
Bob |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:55 pm Post subject: Re: Pines of Rome buccine parts: slur or not? |
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mcgee wrote: | Most recordings I've heard omit the slurs...
...
What's the consensus? |
I believe you knew it all along. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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Rompson Regular Member
Joined: 04 May 2013 Posts: 86
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Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:10 am Post subject: |
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This has caught my interest. Anyone know why the slurs aren't played? I always liked the Toscanini version and the slurs are right there in the part. Why go against the composer's intentions? |
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mcgee New Member
Joined: 16 May 2015 Posts: 10 Location: New Jersey
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:45 am Post subject: |
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Good to see your name pop up here, Bob!
So a followup question for everybody: When and why did the quintuplets become a duplet followed by a triplet?
We could have a whole thread about performance practice issues, where tradition overrules the printed score (or parts, or both). _________________ Tom McGee
South Orange, NJ
Broadway Bach Ensemble
Brooklyn Symphony
Amore Opera |
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mcgee New Member
Joined: 16 May 2015 Posts: 10 Location: New Jersey
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Pines of Rome buccine parts: slur or not? |
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Tpt_Guy wrote: | mcgee wrote: | Most recordings I've heard omit the slurs...
...
What's the consensus? |
I believe you knew it all along. |
Just wanted to be sure! _________________ Tom McGee
South Orange, NJ
Broadway Bach Ensemble
Brooklyn Symphony
Amore Opera |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9025 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:44 am Post subject: |
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mcgee wrote: | So a follow-up (sic) question for everybody: |
Not so fast. I think the following question is very important.
Rompson wrote: | Why go against the composer's intentions? |
I would like to know the rationale for an instrumentalist being able to override a composer like Respighi. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:19 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps the bit where the score doesn't match the part. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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Rompson Regular Member
Joined: 04 May 2013 Posts: 86
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:44 am Post subject: |
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RandyTX wrote: | Perhaps the bit where the score doesn't match the part. |
Haha well never mind then. Now I see. |
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mcgee New Member
Joined: 16 May 2015 Posts: 10 Location: New Jersey
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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Then the plot thickens. A set of parts is included in the rental set that isn't in the score at all. This is an edge case of the score and parts not matching.
There is an extra trumpet IV part, and horns V and VI (and maybe a trombone part?) to be used when insufficient players are available to play the buccine parts offstage. The printed parts for trumpets II and II (at least) have a line of cues to be played in that case. This is all laid out in another thread somewhere here on trumpetherald.com that I don't have time to search for.
But in any event, none of them show the quintuplet as a duplet followed by a triplet. _________________ Tom McGee
South Orange, NJ
Broadway Bach Ensemble
Brooklyn Symphony
Amore Opera |
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shermantrumpet Regular Member
Joined: 09 Apr 2014 Posts: 48 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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When conductors feel it might be cleaner/more together, they ask to have the quintuplets played as twos and threes.
I have more often played them (been asked to play them) as quintuplets, but have also been asked to play duple/triple. A decent ensemble can easily play them as notated. I've always assumed conductors who ask for duple/triple had a bad experience with a weak orchestra early on or had a conducting teacher who taught them to ask for that as a way of making it easier.
If at all possible, play them as quintuplets. |
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Rompson Regular Member
Joined: 04 May 2013 Posts: 86
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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While we are at it, I just looked at the score and the buccine parts are also marked Flicorno Soprano (Flugelhorn) and Flicorno Tenore (Tenor/baritone horn). How dare we have the audacity in 2018 to play these parts on trumpets and trombones.
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9025 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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RandyTX wrote: | Perhaps the bit where the score doesn't match the part. | Randy, do I understand, then, that the score contained separated notes, while the parts, wrongly, had slurs? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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