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chuck in ny Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 3597 Location: New York
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:48 pm Post subject: the C emerges |
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well it's been a long trumpet journey and high C is finally coming out of the bell. it is at the point of regularly being able to be hit as a pitch and with practice will one day be owned.
a basic and conservative approach has been building my playing, having received embouchure help from pops, judicious use of the PETE device to build chop muscles, daily hammering with the bai lin material, and continual curiosity and concentration on how the embouchure produces sound. likely better expressed as getting a feel for things.
this is a cool milestone with an eye to pushing the register to G in time. it's a quest and why not although academic for someone who has no intention to be a screamer.
plan for the future is more lessons and a slowly expanding practice schedule. |
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spitvalve Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2158 Location: Little Elm, TX
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Onward and upward! _________________ Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces |
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GeorgeB Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 Posts: 1063 Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:53 am Post subject: |
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Good for you. _________________ GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet |
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chuck in ny Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 3597 Location: New York
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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:42 am Post subject: |
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spitvalve wrote: | Onward and upward! |
yes. every decade or so i am compelled to make some progress. |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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You would be surprised at how few trumpet players have a consistent, musical high C available for most purposes. Now having said that?
Practice room range doesnt come in increments. Tends to arrive in large chunks of a perfect fourth or more. One day you struggle to barely squeak the high C? A week later you get a nasty headache from blowing out your first G above high C. At very loud volume. A tone you'd previously thought impossible.
It is only on the bandstand where we add one note at a time to our musical range. This is because of various real life factors. Such as the fear of hitting clams or upsetting the band director.
If given a choice between practicing more or playing in a lical ensemble? I'd take the town band. As anything which reinforces live performance conditions will make me improve more quickly. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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Lionel wrote: | .....
Practice room range doesnt come in increments. Tends to arrive in large chunks of a perfect fourth or more. One day you struggle to barely squeak the high C? A week later you get a nasty headache from blowing out your first G above high C. At very loud volume. A tone you'd previously thought impossible.
...... |
We’re all different, but that was not at all how it happened for me.
A jump of a fourth? Not my experience.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:26 am Post subject: |
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Brad361 wrote: | Lionel wrote: | .....
Practice room range doesnt come in increments. Tends to arrive in large chunks of a perfect fourth or more. One day you struggle to barely squeak the high C? A week later you get a nasty headache from blowing out your first G above high C. At very loud volume. A tone you'd previously thought impossible.
...... |
We’re all different, but that was not at all how it happened for me.
A jump of a fourth? Not my experience.
Brad |
It could Brad. The amount of physical energy required to blow even a triple C is not so much greater thsn that necessary to blow a mere G top of the staff at loud volume. The only questions are,
A. Does the trumpet player's existing embouchure have the latent capacity to allow the production of triple C? Some do and some dont. And/or,
B. If his existing embouchure does have this potential how can he adjust his own attachment to the instrument so as to allow that note?
Answer "yes" to A and then just answer B and his range could easily shoot up two octaves overnight. I have seen and heard this happen several times. It is not such an unusual phenomenom.
However the actual polishing of new high notes may take some time. Much of this depends upon how much the trumpet player chooses to apply himself. And how easy it is for him to blow his new register. Some trumpet players find it quite easy to blow double C. Others like myself found it strenuous. The reason after many years I am in the process of chsnging my embouchure.
Regardless of how one does play the trumpet? If the highest useable note you have is short of E natural sbove high C (D concert)? You're doing something wrong. I'm convinced of this. Most intermediate to advabced players should have a decent G above high C. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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INTJ Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
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Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:48 am Post subject: |
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Brad361 wrote: | Lionel wrote: | .....
Practice room range doesnt come in increments. Tends to arrive in large chunks of a perfect fourth or more. One day you struggle to barely squeak the high C? A week later you get a nasty headache from blowing out your first G above high C. At very loud volume. A tone you'd previously thought impossible.
...... |
We’re all different, but that was not at all how it happened for me.
A jump of a fourth? Not my experience.
Brad |
The very day I figured out how to use tongue arch, I added a third to my playable range. Went from being a High E player to a High G player. Since then, my range increases have been much more incremental.
I think if it's a matter of learning a technique or visualization, then the range can jump. If it is a matter of developing strength and finesse, then it is gradual. _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Harrelson 5mm MP |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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Brad361 wrote: | Lionel wrote: | .....
Practice room range doesnt come in increments. Tends to arrive in large chunks of a perfect fourth or more. One day you struggle to barely squeak the high C? A week later you get a nasty headache from blowing out your first G above high C. At very loud volume. A tone you'd previously thought impossible.
...... |
We’re all different, but that was not at all how it happened for me.
A jump of a fourth? Not my experience.
Brad |
That has not been my experience either for the most part. I do agree though (and I experienced) that a jump in range can happen when a player finds the feel or "knack" of how to play the higher notes he or she already has the physical strength to play. For me, I was stuck at High C for many years (from about age 10 to about age 16), but when I learned about the need to arch the tongue up and forward for high notes (and that it wasn't just all about strong lips), and applied that knowledge during practice my range climbed several steps very quickly.
But once someone has the feel for correct tongue arch and the other coordination related aspects of playing the upper register, and someone's range limitation is mostly strength related, one can only develop more range as fast as nature will allow that strength to be increased through practice of the proper exercises and material.
In the past I've developed my range to well above Double High C. But when I stopped doing the playing exercises required to maintain the extraordinary strength levels needed for the extreme upper register, that range disappeared (sort of like what happens to Cinderella's coach and horses at midnight).
Just about 4 weeks ago, I decided to start doing the Part One and Two range and endurance building exercises of Claude Gordon's Systematic Approach Lesson Two as my first routine of the day (as opposed to my last), as I rarely seem to get through my whole routine and it is often neglected, creating a "one step forward; one step backward" effect. At that time (4 weeks ago) I had a good, solid G above High C. Within two weeks I had my solid G# back, and now for the past few days I've been getting good solid A's and reaching Bb and sometimes Double B. At this rate I'll be playing a solid, full power Quintuple High C by May 2019.
One caveat: There are people out there who are naturally big, strong, muscular types. It's quite possible that a guy built like a Linebacker has the innate blowing strength needed to generate the air pressure required to play a full-power double high C. Maybe someone like that can have 4 step jumps in range as they find the feel of the notes. But that is not typical. Guys like me have to work a bit to develop those strength levels. But as normal-sized guys like Arturo Sandoval and even skinny guys like Doc Severinsen, Al Vizzutti and even me have proven, anyone can develop the strength required by practicing the right material in the right way.
Last, but certainly not least: Congratulations Chuck!!!
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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theslawdawg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 843 Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
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Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: | Brad361 wrote: | Lionel wrote: | .....
Practice room range doesnt come in increments. Tends to arrive in large chunks of a perfect fourth or more. One day you struggle to barely squeak the high C? A week later you get a nasty headache from blowing out your first G above high C. At very loud volume. A tone you'd previously thought impossible.
...... |
We’re all different, but that was not at all how it happened for me.
A jump of a fourth? Not my experience.
Brad |
That has not been my experience either for the most part. I do agree though (and I experienced) that a jump in range can happen when a player finds the feel or "knack" of how to play the higher notes he or she already has the physical strength to play. For me, I was stuck at High C for many years (from about age 10 to about age 16), but when I learned about the need to arch the tongue up and forward for high notes (and that it wasn't just all about strong lips), and applied that knowledge during practice my range climbed several steps very quickly.
But once someone has the feel for correct tongue arch and the other coordination related aspects of playing the upper register, and someone's range limitation is mostly strength related, one can only develop more range as fast as nature will allow that strength to be increased through practice of the proper exercises and material.
In the past I've developed my range to well above Double High C. But when I stopped doing the playing exercises required to maintain the extraordinary strength levels needed for the extreme upper register, that range disappeared (sort of like what happens to Cinderella's coach and horses at midnight).
Just about 4 weeks ago, I decided to start doing the Part One and Two range and endurance building exercises of Claude Gordon's Systematic Approach Lesson Two as my first routine of the day (as opposed to my last), as I rarely seem to get through my whole routine and it is often neglected, creating a "one step forward; one step backward" effect. At that time (4 weeks ago) I had a good, solid G above High C. Within two weeks I had my solid G# back, and now for the past few days I've been getting good solid A's and reaching Bb and sometimes Double B. At this rate I'll be playing a solid, full power Quintuple High C by May 2019.
One caveat: There are people out there who are naturally big, strong, muscular types. It's quite possible that a guy built like a Linebacker has the innate blowing strength needed to generate the air pressure required to play a full-power double high C. Maybe someone like that can have 4 step jumps in range as they find the feel of the notes. But that is not typical. Guys like me have to work a bit to develop those strength levels. But as normal-sized guys like Arturo Sandoval and even skinny guys like Doc Severinsen, Al Vizzutti and even me have proven, anyone can develop the strength required by practicing the right material in the right way.
Last, but certainly not least: Congratulations Chuck!!!
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested |
Hi John,
Great comments. I am not a professional trumpet player by trade, but have been playing consistently since I was 6. I am also linebacker size, and consider myself at the mid 40s age, to still be in extremely good shape. I still rely on Claude’s method/book for my chops upkeep.
Despite my difficult work schedule that can take me away from home and practice time, I rely on that book to get me back up to speed. I also rely on my physical attributes. I’m fortunate that my lung capacity and health is still similar to how I was at 20, if not better. At 6’1, 235 pounds, with about 17 percent body fat...I can still push out double high C’s even after some time off (thanks cardio!). Granted, I can’t do it for long but that’s where CG comes in.
I have tried something new recently. After a long physical workout...I try to play something very taxing when I get home while I’m still winded. It’s tough to do but it has helped me with my breathing and forcing myself to relax.
All the best,
Jr _________________ My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs |
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chuck in ny Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 3597 Location: New York
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Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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i'm with lionel here. i won't be satisfied until i have the G above high C.
i fortunately do not play commercially and further am not a high register aficionado. it doesn't matter. the instrument has physics that you have to deal with along with having your chops work properly and the other aspects of good procedure. it's a drill, it's a challenge, you do it. |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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theslawdawg wrote: | John Mohan wrote: | Brad361 wrote: | Lionel wrote: | .....
Practice room range doesnt come in increments. Tends to arrive in large chunks of a perfect fourth or more. One day you struggle to barely squeak the high C? A week later you get a nasty headache from blowing out your first G above high C. At very loud volume. A tone you'd previously thought impossible.
...... |
We’re all different, but that was not at all how it happened for me.
A jump of a fourth? Not my experience.
Brad |
That has not been my experience either for the most part. I do agree though (and I experienced) that a jump in range can happen when a player finds the feel or "knack" of how to play the higher notes he or she already has the physical strength to play. For me, I was stuck at High C for many years (from about age 10 to about age 16), but when I learned about the need to arch the tongue up and forward for high notes (and that it wasn't just all about strong lips), and applied that knowledge during practice my range climbed several steps very quickly.
But once someone has the feel for correct tongue arch and the other coordination related aspects of playing the upper register, and someone's range limitation is mostly strength related, one can only develop more range as fast as nature will allow that strength to be increased through practice of the proper exercises and material.
In the past I've developed my range to well above Double High C. But when I stopped doing the playing exercises required to maintain the extraordinary strength levels needed for the extreme upper register, that range disappeared (sort of like what happens to Cinderella's coach and horses at midnight).
Just about 4 weeks ago, I decided to start doing the Part One and Two range and endurance building exercises of Claude Gordon's Systematic Approach Lesson Two as my first routine of the day (as opposed to my last), as I rarely seem to get through my whole routine and it is often neglected, creating a "one step forward; one step backward" effect. At that time (4 weeks ago) I had a good, solid G above High C. Within two weeks I had my solid G# back, and now for the past few days I've been getting good solid A's and reaching Bb and sometimes Double B. At this rate I'll be playing a solid, full power Quintuple High C by May 2019.
One caveat: There are people out there who are naturally big, strong, muscular types. It's quite possible that a guy built like a Linebacker has the innate blowing strength needed to generate the air pressure required to play a full-power double high C. Maybe someone like that can have 4 step jumps in range as they find the feel of the notes. But that is not typical. Guys like me have to work a bit to develop those strength levels. But as normal-sized guys like Arturo Sandoval and even skinny guys like Doc Severinsen, Al Vizzutti and even me have proven, anyone can develop the strength required by practicing the right material in the right way.
Last, but certainly not least: Congratulations Chuck!!!
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested |
Hi John,
Great comments. I am not a professional trumpet player by trade, but have been playing consistently since I was 6. I am also linebacker size, and consider myself at the mid 40s age, to still be in extremely good shape. I still rely on Claude’s method/book for my chops upkeep.
Despite my difficult work schedule that can take me away from home and practice time, I rely on that book to get me back up to speed. I also rely on my physical attributes. I’m fortunate that my lung capacity and health is still similar to how I was at 20, if not better. At 6’1, 235 pounds, with about 17 percent body fat...I can still push out double high C’s even after some time off (thanks cardio!). Granted, I can’t do it for long but that’s where CG comes in.
I have tried something new recently. After a long physical workout...I try to play something very taxing when I get home while I’m still winded. It’s tough to do but it has helped me with my breathing and forcing myself to relax.
All the best,
Jr |
Thanks for the reply and thanks for helping to confirm what I believe to be the case concerning physical attributes and ease of reaching the high notes. You're in good company - Wayne Bergeron is about your size and the high notes have always come relatively easy for him. If I quit playing for a while (as I had to do when my lip got burned during a dental procedure), I can pick up the horn after several months and still hit a pretty good F# above High C - for about 30 seconds, and then I'm spent.
To me it makes total sense that you, a guy who's a half foot taller and has 70 lbs more mass than me is going to have a natural set point about a half an octave higher (which requires about 45% more air power strength to reach).
Fortunately for us less-than-linebacker-sized folks, that the required amount of strength can be developed by practicing the correct material in the right way.
Best wishes,
John |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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chuck in ny wrote: | i'm with lionel here. i won't be satisfied until i have the G above high C.
i fortunately do not play commercially and further am not a high register aficionado. it doesn't matter. the instrument has physics that you have to deal with along with having your chops work properly and the other aspects of good procedure. it's a drill, it's a challenge, you do it. |
I think something Herbert L. Clarke wrote in his autobiography is pertinent here:
Quote: | What one man can do, so can another. |
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MF Fan Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 Posts: 397 Location: The Great White North
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Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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I’ve had two instances in my 45 year amateur playing career where I’ve gained a 4th or better in a relatively short amount of time. The first was in I was in high school and over the summer I went from a solid high C to a G above. That came from playing the 20 minute G out of the Cat Anderson method. It was during this time I taught myself the basics of circular breathing, not well enough to ever use it outside the practice room, but it did enable me to leave the horn on my chops while playing the note for minutes at a time. It was essentially a super-long setting exercise. I gained a 3rd in the course of a couple of weeks, and had the G by the end of the summer. I retained a playable G throughout high school and college, playing lead in a variety of big bands.
The second experience happened within the past 3 months, which was the outcome of changing several variables. I’m going to get a bit long winded here, but who else can I tell this to that would get the significance? 😊
After a 30 year lay-off from the horn, I picked it back up a couple of years ago and started noodling around several days a week purely for the fun of it, no outside playing obligations. My goal was to play with a good sound as efficiently as possible. In that vein, when Lynn Nicolson released his MF Protocol video I bought it along with a small V-cup based on the Calicchio Maynard played in the 50’s. I learned to play the mouthpiece in all registers, but it was very inconsistent. As far as high notes go, I eventually worked up to hitting notes up to double D, but never in a consistent manner that would be reliable enough to use in a performance setting. So while fun to produce notes in that register, it was nothing more than a parlor trick as far as I was concerned, and it wasn’t easily replicated. Fast forward another year and I ended up getting a more middle of the road mouthpiece, a Steve Patrick version of the old Jet Tone 5B. Still small by most standards, but compared to the MF piece it was quite large. Over the past year my sound really opened up and my playable range was up to an F above high C. I had been playing probably 3-4 days a week, an hour at a time.
Over the past three months, two revelations occurred that led to some amazing gains. I stumbled across the “19/30’s” thread that talked about the Bill Adam approach for letting your chops find their own natural setting. It only took a few sessions of experimentation and it fundamentally relaxed my setup, moved my corners forward, etc. My sound really opened up and gave me much more flexibility. I also found my focus automatically shifted to breathing and support. Taking relaxed deep breaths became the focus, the chops seemed to take care of themselves. Hmmmm. My sound is now closer to the sound I’ve had in my head all these years, kind of a mix between Al Hirt, Maynard, and Harry James, a fat, sizzle kind of sound, and it is very efficient. I played that way for a month or so, no exercises, mainly playing standards in the staff, just enjoying the new sound and ease of playing. One day last week I thought to try unfurling a little more and added a little pucker, drawing on my experience with Lynn’s MF Protocol. I immediately found that I was able to play high C much more loudly will little chop effort. Hmmmm….Once I had a solid feeling on the high C, I popped up to the E. Still nice and loud and fat, no more lip effort, but I noticed I was automatically producing more compression in my torso to support it. I experimented a few minutes jumping to the High G and was hitting it solid. After each attempt I went back to low and mid register using my recently acquired 19/30’s set-up and found the sound and flexibility was still there. When I was playing these notes in the past on the Calicchio I’d start swelling and lose everything after 15 minutes. Being able to produce these notes while retaining my target sound and flexibility below high C was a major breakthrough. So I went for broke. Got the high C where I wanted and did the aprpegio C-E-G-DHC. All notes equally loud (FF) and fat. Holy crap! Dropped back down to the low and mid register and everything was still there. I’ve been experimenting with this for the past week and am starting to play tunes in this register. I can replicate it every day, repeatedly and haven’t lost anything below high C. Is it ready for prime-time outside the practice room? No, but now that I have a repeatable system that really works (for me) I’m highly motivated to build on it. I’m focusing on playing extended passages between High C and G, and can push to DHC virtually at will. It’s like I’ve discovered THE FORCE, but I’ve yet to harness it so it’s completely controllable. I eventually run out of gas, but I think it’s my blowing muscles and corners that are finally giving out, it’s not a result of chops swelling from undo pressure. I’m also sticking with my mid-range standards to ensure I’m not over doing it on the high stuff at the expense of the sound and flexibility I’ve gained in the low and mid-registers.
So for me it has been a series of self-discoveries that happened to build on each other and led me to where I’m at as of today. Again, I’m still playing no more than 3-4 hours a week, music not exercises. It wasn't a function of building strength, but finding my optimal set-up in terms of hardware and chops. I think Lynn would probably say I’m finally executing the MF Protocol as it was intended, and he’d probably be right. It just took me two years of experimenting with variables until I got there, and I think the order in which I changed things was also key. Don’t look for me to take over the lead chair in Gordon Goodwin’s band anytime soon, but I sure am having fun! _________________ MF Fan
__________
L.A. Benge 5x
Holton MF3
Lead Trumpet - My Basement Jazz Orchestra |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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Dude if this is a true story then you earned a big congratulations. I’m a big believer in AHA’s and it looks like you found a big one, figure it out and let us know how,!!
But I have to say I’m really rooting for Lionel, when he gets 8 octaves I’m signing up for the 1st lesson.
I really like his thinking on how easy it really is👍. Until I get a good explanation of these methods I guess I’ll just have to keep practicing😥
Hurry up you guys!!!!
Rod |
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trumpetplanet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Posts: 543 Location: Bristol, UK
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Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:42 am Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: | To me it makes total sense that you, a guy who's a half foot taller and has 70 lbs more mass than me is going to have a natural set point about a half an octave higher (which requires about 45% more air power strength to reach).
Fortunately for us less-than-linebacker-sized folks, that the required amount of strength can be developed by practicing the correct material in the right way. |
This is a joke, right? Or do you actually believe that someone's "natural ability" is based upon their size?
When I was 12 I was about 5' high and skinny as a rake. I could also play high C with barely any physical effort. Explain that to me John - I really want to read this one.
If high playing was all about "air power strength" then the video in my signature wouldn't even be possible.... Neither the low notes or the high ones. _________________ UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.
https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/ |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:23 am Post subject: |
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I certainly don’t own my hi g yet and can only squeak a dbl c about twice a day on a good day so I’m no person to talk about how to do it, but I do have a good set of ears and I have to say something about hearing hi notes played with power and simply sounding a tone.
The TCE demonstrated in background I did not find to be musical, a bit sharp and strident in attack with little core. This isn’t limited to your sound but is what I hear when Callet and his students demonstrate at the shows ive been to (even had a Sima). So yes you can sound very hi notes without lots of air but to me you lose vibrancy and tone when you don’t let the lips work naturally with the wind, and you loose what I consider good articulation. I am not beating up a technique but it’s just been my observation from what I hear. Love to have Callet range, just not his sound.
So yes you can hit hi notes with little air even using normal methods, and also using TCE and wigs but they don’t sound the same and that’s the difference to me, but what I think has ltttle weight. |
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trumpetplanet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Posts: 543 Location: Bristol, UK
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Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:57 am Post subject: |
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Rod Haney wrote: | I certainly don’t own my hi g yet and can only squeak a dbl c about twice a day on a good day so I’m no person to talk about how to do it, but I do have a good set of ears and I have to say something about hearing hi notes played with power and simply sounding a tone.
The TCE demonstrated in background I did not find to be musical, a bit sharp and strident in attack with little core. This isn’t limited to your sound but is what I hear when Callet and his students demonstrate at the shows ive been to (even had a Sima). So yes you can sound very hi notes without lots of air but to me you lose vibrancy and tone when you don’t let the lips work naturally with the wind, and you loose what I consider good articulation. I am not beating up a technique but it’s just been my observation from what I hear. Love to have Callet range, just not his sound.
So yes you can hit hi notes with little air even using normal methods, and also using TCE and wigs but they don’t sound the same and that’s the difference to me, but what I think has ltttle weight. |
Hi Rod, it's fair enough if you don't like the kind of sound I have when I play. Seeing as you've mentioned hearing similar qualities in other Callet-influenced players then I'll spare myself the time of trying to defend my sound but calling me unmusical is quite rude. The video you're referring to is not the one I meant... but again, it's not the point.
My point was to refute JM's insinuation that one's ability to play the instrument is based on nothing more than physical strength which is, at best, ignorant. _________________ UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.
https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/ |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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trumpetplanet wrote: | Rod Haney wrote: | I certainly don’t own my hi g yet and can only squeak a dbl c about twice a day on a good day so I’m no person to talk about how to do it, but I do have a good set of ears and I have to say something about hearing hi notes played with power and simply sounding a tone.
The TCE demonstrated in background I did not find to be musical, a bit sharp and strident in attack with little core. This isn’t limited to your sound but is what I hear when Callet and his students demonstrate at the shows ive been to (even had a Sima). So yes you can sound very hi notes without lots of air but to me you lose vibrancy and tone when you don’t let the lips work naturally with the wind, and you loose what I consider good articulation. I am not beating up a technique but it’s just been my observation from what I hear. Love to have Callet range, just not his sound.
So yes you can hit hi notes with little air even using normal methods, and also using TCE and wigs but they don’t sound the same and that’s the difference to me, but what I think has ltttle weight. |
Hi Rod, it's fair enough if you don't like the kind of sound I have when I play. Seeing as you've mentioned hearing similar qualities in other Callet-influenced players then I'll spare myself the time of trying to defend my sound but calling me unmusical is quite rude. The video you're referring to is not the one I meant... but again, it's not the point.
My point was to refute JM's insinuation that one's ability to play the instrument is based on nothing more than physical strength which is, at best, ignorant. |
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We dont need to call people "ignorant". You can disagree with John without resorting to name calling. Statements like,
I completely disagree". Are fine. If you think that someone isnt making sense? Dont call them dumb or stupid. Say,
"I think that you're off base in your statement". Then go on to describe why you disagree.
These kinds of responses do not poison the well. Whereas when insults start flying? No one wants to contribute.
I personally know of several fantastic professional trumpet players who do not post here. All due to the crap-storm of ugly responses common to the forum. I'm speaking of forner Maynard Ferguson alumni and top notch Las Vegas pros. They don't like being to to. "---- off" by amateur trumpet players. So they refuse to contribute. And I don't blame them.
So? Keep it polite. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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I did not mean that you were un-musical just that method you choose to play the notes results in a sound that does not fit my concept of “good” upper register work. I find that the method sounds too sharp on attack and never reaches a resonance, and Ive never heard a TCE slur. I also find those who don’t use much air support but an extremely strong embouchure have weak upper registers. I think almost everyone who earns a good living playing higher notes must have at least good lungs and proper technique to have a good commercial sound. But like I said that’s just me, and like you I make my choices on the sound I want and You do too. Don’t be upset as it is just an opinion, but the differences in sound are apparent to hear, which sound do you want.
Rod 🙂 |
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