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Tripple pedals (?)


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Basbasun
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:02 am    Post subject: Tripple pedals (?) Reply with quote

For years I have been listening to players playing pedal tones (with very different aproach and result) and sometimes "tripple pedals. I just listened to some on the youtube. It seems like nobody know what tones they are playing down there. Like they say : this was a solid solid triple pedal C.
But it was a solid C#. Most often the "triple pedals" does not sound like it stops on tone at all, it is just a rumble, whe there is a deffined tone it is allways a semitone higher. I just like to se some comment on this?
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:22 am    Post subject: Re: Tripple pedals (?) Reply with quote

Basbasun wrote:
For years I have been listening to players playing pedal tones (with very different aproach and result) and sometimes "tripple pedals. I just listened to some on the youtube. It seems like nobody know what tones they are playing down there. Like they say : this was a solid solid triple pedal C.
But it was a solid C#. Most often the "triple pedals" does not sound like it stops on tone at all, it is just a rumble, whe there is a deffined tone it is allways a semitone higher. I just like to se some comment on this?


Since I began the BE I�ve become able to play real double pedal C:s - then continue down to F#(Gb) - sometimes I�m able to go further down to a "trouble pedal C". Also after some time my "single pedal" C:s also become much more articulated and in tune - without me fiddling with 1-2-3 valve combinations - however initially it wasn�t like that. The BE method stresses learning these intervalls/training your ear -because as you write it is fairly easy to land on some other note, like C#.
Today I can play a high C then immediately a double pedal C (and the reverse)(still having to "re-install" my lips down there, lower lip has to "slide" out under the rim, still needing more focus). Transition going smoother and smoother.
All this was hit and miss business before the BE. So definitelvely an important ingredient in enhancing flexibility. And pitch-sensitivity.
The merits of learning/doing this is another topic and has been discussed at lenght on the forum. Pro and cons have been advocated. I�m pro although an amateur.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I strongly suggest you do not make regular practice of the notes below Double Pedal C. It's not necessary and it can actually be dangerous. Here's something I wrote in the past about a bad experience I had practicing down in the range below Double Pedal C:

John Mohan wrote:
One should work their way down to the point where they can take the Part One exercises down to Double Pedal C. For some this will happen very quickly. Others will take several months of more to get to where they can take them down that low.

Claude [Gordon] felt that going beyond Double Pedal C really didn't hold any benefits, and I agree. In fact, I had a bad thing happen back when I was a little over-enthusiastic and taking the Part One exercises down to Triple Pedal C.

It happened when I was playing for Disney's Der Glöckner von Notre Dame (Hunchback) at the big Theater am Potsdamer Platz in Berlin. After the last show of the day I'd often go up to the 7th Floor Orchestra Rehearsal Hall and do the Systematic Approach Part One and Part Two exercises. I was doing a lot of playing at the time because in addition to the full schedule of Hunchback shows, we had a children's musical called Emil und die Detektive playing concurrently at the theater (10 am shows on Saturday and Sunday, evening shows on the Monday night when the theater was normally dark, Emil replacing Hunchback on the Tuesday night, and Emil matinees through out the week). I managed to get hired to play on that show as well, so I was playing 13 shows a week, and the Emil show was actually a pretty heavy book (an amazing number of high notes in it for a children's musical set in the late 1920's).

One night after the shows as I was doing my Part One exercises and sustaining something around a G or Gb below Double Pedal C, all of a sudden I felt what felt like a paper cut occur on my lip. The left side of my top lip had split open a little bit right on the edge of the callus where the inner edge of the mouthpiece contacts the lip! Panic city!!!! Basically, my lips were vibrating violently enough on that ultra low not that the callus gave way and split. I put the horn away, drove home, maybe I put some vitamin E on it (can't remember now) and went to bed hoping for the best. The next day I very carefully warmed up and played the shows as easy and carefully as I could, and all turned out okay - the cut had healed up enough in the night that it held and did not become a chronic problem.

I sure learned my lesson from that incident! I had suffered through a much worse case of a cut lip while playing in the heavy duty bands of the Los Angeles Jazz Workshop in the 80's. Every time I played a rehearsal my lip split open again. It was agonizing and it took about 6 weeks before it finally healed. John Thomas went through a similar thing when he was playing lead on one of the big bands - I think the Buddy Rich band. Months of agony that NOBODY wants to go through.

So stay away from the extreme pedal notes (the ones below Double Pedal C) especially if you are doing a lot of playing and have calluses built up.


Hope this was helpful.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
I strongly suggest you do not make regular practice of the notes below Double Pedal C. It's not necessary and it can actually be dangerous. Here's something I wrote in the past about a bad experience I had practicing down in the range below Double Pedal C:

John Mohan wrote:
One should work their way down to the point where they can take the Part One exercises down to Double Pedal C. For some this will happen very quickly. Others will take several months of more to get to where they can take them down that low.

Claude [Gordon] felt that going beyond Double Pedal C really didn't hold any benefits, and I agree. In fact, I had a bad thing happen back when I was a little over-enthusiastic and taking the Part One exercises down to Triple Pedal C.

It happened when I was playing for Disney's Der Glöckner von Notre Dame (Hunchback) at the big Theater am Potsdamer Platz in Berlin. After the last show of the day I'd often go up to the 7th Floor Orchestra Rehearsal Hall and do the Systematic Approach Part One and Part Two exercises. I was doing a lot of playing at the time because in addition to the full schedule of Hunchback shows, we had a children's musical called Emil und die Detektive playing concurrently at the theater (10 am shows on Saturday and Sunday, evening shows on the Monday night when the theater was normally dark, Emil replacing Hunchback on the Tuesday night, and Emil matinees through out the week). I managed to get hired to play on that show as well, so I was playing 13 shows a week, and the Emil show was actually a pretty heavy book (an amazing number of high notes in it for a children's musical set in the late 1920's).

One night after the shows as I was doing my Part One exercises and sustaining something around a G or Gb below Double Pedal C, all of a sudden I felt what felt like a paper cut occur on my lip. The left side of my top lip had split open a little bit right on the edge of the callus where the inner edge of the mouthpiece contacts the lip! Panic city!!!! Basically, my lips were vibrating violently enough on that ultra low not that the callus gave way and split. I put the horn away, drove home, maybe I put some vitamin E on it (can't remember now) and went to bed hoping for the best. The next day I very carefully warmed up and played the shows as easy and carefully as I could, and all turned out okay - the cut had healed up enough in the night that it held and did not become a chronic problem.

I sure learned my lesson from that incident! I had suffered through a much worse case of a cut lip while playing in the heavy duty bands of the Los Angeles Jazz Workshop in the 80's. Every time I played a rehearsal my lip split open again. It was agonizing and it took about 6 weeks before it finally healed. John Thomas went through a similar thing when he was playing lead on one of the big bands - I think the Buddy Rich band. Months of agony that NOBODY wants to go through.

So stay away from the extreme pedal notes (the ones below Double Pedal C) especially if you are doing a lot of playing and have calluses built up.


Hope this was helpful.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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Sigh, who am I, a mere amateur to comment mr Mohan´s damage report? I seriously doubted I should comment the above -moreover very often agreeing&benefitting with your wellthought and "battleearned" ideas but..I just couldn´t refrain myself
So I will strongly underline that I don´t wish to argue - just make a comment: You describe a situation in which your chops were under heavy fire, a situation were you had to really pull everything together to be able to fullfil your most demanding tasks.
Couldn´t it be that you lips had become vulnerable - thereby making them prone to react negatively to the vibrations that might be the result of doing these pedals?
Seems to me doing pedals, the way you did them amounted to go over the top, immediately getting shot down?
I´ve noticed that doing too much pedals, too much high register, too much you name it, could be detrimental. Valid in all "athletics".
But that´s not the way the pedals should be used. I use them, gently, like stretching, after a hard reharsal or gig, but also in connection with the rest of the BE method, being acutely aware of the state of my chops, in fact BE has helped acquire better understanding of the ever present changing state of my chops; some days stiffer, some days looser, some days..etc.
Also - my comment has its roots in a personal experience some years ago when I found myself in a position with completely ruined chops - overuse-syndrom talking with Lucinda L. So I´m kinda watchful of approaching the fine/elusive border where "too much" suddenly becomes a reality.
As I look upon it, one has to "derivate" - where is the point when something goes from being beneficial to detrïmental.
So this I said! Please comment!
Sincerely yours SBF
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:

Couldn´t it be that you lips had become vulnerable - thereby making them prone to react negatively to the vibrations that might be the result of doing these pedals?


I believe I implicitly answered that question in the affirmative in the last sentence of my previous post I quoted.

Claude Gordon (and Jeff Purtle and myself) have all tried it, and have all come to the conclusion that practicing the pedal note exercises below Double Pedal C provides no measurable benefit. And in my case, it caused an injury (that yes, might not have happened if I wasn't playing 13 shows a week at the time). Since that day seventeen years ago I have not practiced below a sustained Double Pedal C. I have continued to slowly improve over the years. More importantly, I have not suffered a similar lip cut/split incident since, even when on extremely heavy playing schedules.

Cheers,

John
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
Seymor B Fudd wrote:

Couldn´t it be that you lips had become vulnerable - thereby making them prone to react negatively to the vibrations that might be the result of doing these pedals?


I believe I implicitly answered that question in the affirmative in the last sentence of my previous post I quoted.

Claude Gordon (and Jeff Purtle and myself) have all tried it, and have all come to the conclusion that practicing the pedal note exercises below Double Pedal C provides no measurable benefit. And in my case, it caused an injury (that yes, might not have happened if I wasn't playing 13 shows a week at the time). Since that day seventeen years ago I have not practiced below a sustained Double Pedal C. I have continued to slowly improve over the years. More importantly, I have not suffered a similar lip cut/split incident since, even when on extremely heavy playing schedules.

Cheers,

John



Trumpet playing might be fatal! Beware of overdoing it.
In the midst of heavy battle one tends to go over the top ´cause of the inherent exitement. But that might be more common for people like me, dedicated amateurs who lack the "proish core", the result of practicing 4-6 hours a day, performing under the most demanding conditions yet maintaining good enough standards.

I respectfully disagree whilst saying "cheers"! And will continue using the double pedals in a sensible and careful way since I´ve found them very beneficial, especially done the BE way.
Each to his own - chacun à son goût!
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
Seymor B Fudd wrote:

Couldn´t it be that you lips had become vulnerable - thereby making them prone to react negatively to the vibrations that might be the result of doing these pedals?


I believe I implicitly answered that question in the affirmative in the last sentence of my previous post I quoted.

Claude Gordon (and Jeff Purtle and myself) have all tried it, and have all come to the conclusion that practicing the pedal note exercises below Double Pedal C provides no measurable benefit. And in my case, it caused an injury (that yes, might not have happened if I wasn't playing 13 shows a week at the time). Since that day seventeen years ago I have not practiced below a sustained Double Pedal C. I have continued to slowly improve over the years. More importantly, I have not suffered a similar lip cut/split incident since, even when on extremely heavy playing schedules.

Cheers,

John



Trumpet playing might be fatal! Beware of overdoing it.
In the midst of heavy battle one tends to go over the top ´cause of the inherent exitement. But that might be more common for people like me, dedicated amateurs who lack the "proish core", the result of practicing 4-6 hours a day, performing under the most demanding conditions yet maintaining good enough standards.

I respectfully disagree whilst saying "cheers"! And will continue using the double pedals in a sensible and careful way since I´ve found them very beneficial, especially done the BE way.
Each to his own - chacun à son goût!


Sure, to each his own. I use the double pedals too - I just stop at Double Pedal C for the reasons previously cited. How low are you going with them?
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seymor, the difference between you and Mohan is that you do pedals in the way that Callet designed them, and not in the way that Claude Gordon recommended. Because of this difference, you will NEVER be harmed by doing the double pedal routine, as designed. Back in his heyday, Callet would do this routine up to 10 times per day, and never had any ill effects. Instead, he experienced the benefits of doing them properly, as you apparently do as well.

I've taught over 20,000 lessons and have never seen any type of injury from doing the Callet pedals. Very much the opposite.

In my experience on Trumpet Herald, there are way too many players here who do "Danger Danger Will Robinson!" type of posts, based on a very narrow way of interpreting trumpet pedagogy and an equally narrow way of viewing our ultimate human potential. Take most of those "danger" warnings with a grain of salt.

Jeff
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen Arturo perform live, when he was playing stuff down in the pedal range (beautifully by the way) that would have seemed low on a Tuba. He has a ridiculous range, both above and below the staff. Doesn't seem to be doing him any harm whatsoever.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RandyTX wrote:
I've seen Arturo perform live, when he was playing stuff down in the pedal range (beautifully by the way) that would have seemed low on a Tuba. He has a ridiculous range, both above and below the staff. Doesn't seem to be doing him any harm whatsoever.


Did you read what I posted? I did not write that practicing in the pedal range all the way down to Double Pedal C (which would be a Low C on a Tuba) was ever harmful. And I'm sure, just as I can, Arturo can probably play down to a Triple Pedal C. I just don't recommend practicing down to a Triple Pedal C on a regular basis and to my knowledge, he doesn't make it a regular thing to practice down to Triple Pedal C either.

And I shared my personal experience of a near disaster caused by practicing the notes down that low (well below Double Pedal C).

So as Steve Martin would say,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zANvYB93u2g

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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
Seymor, the difference between you and Mohan is that you do pedals in the way that Callet designed them, and not in the way that Claude Gordon recommended. Because of this difference, you will NEVER be harmed by doing the double pedal routine, as designed. Back in his heyday, Callet would do this routine up to 10 times per day, and never had any ill effects. Instead, he experienced the benefits of doing them properly, as you apparently do as well.

I've taught over 20,000 lessons and have never seen any type of injury from doing the Callet pedals. Very much the opposite.

In my experience on Trumpet Herald, there are way too many players here who do "Danger Danger Will Robinson!" type of posts, based on a very narrow way of interpreting trumpet pedagogy and an equally narrow way of viewing our ultimate human potential. Take most of those "danger" warnings with a grain of salt.

Jeff


Jeff,

You do understand that I am not saying one shouldn't practice the Double Pedal notes (down to Double Pedal C), correct? I only pointed out that Claude Gordon felt (and I agree) that there isn't any benefit in going lower than Double Pedal C, and in my case, it caused harm once.

I am very curious as to how you think the playing of the Double Pedals as taught by Jerry Callet is different from the way Claude Gordon taught us to play them (other than the fact that Claude had us hold the last note of each Pedal Note exercise until all air was exhausted and longer with an attempted crescendo to really work the blowing muscles and Jerry advocating practicing them down to well below Double Pedal C). I've spent some time today searching the Callet forum for information on the Pedals, and all I read are descriptions by Kyle and others that seem very similar to what Claude taught us. Please explain what you think is different between the two approaches (it's a sincere request).

Best wishes,

John
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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unrelated to the debate between the greats here: I have a friend who has been a devotee of Callet’s methods for 30 years or more. He does really fantastic triple pedals, the best I’ve ever heard from any trumpet player. He can also just barely play a high C. It’s been this way as long as I’ve known him (at least 20 years).
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bike&ed wrote:
Unrelated to the debate between the greats here: I have a friend who has been a devotee of Callet�s methods for 30 years or more. He does really fantastic triple pedals, the best I�ve ever heard from any trumpet player. He can also just barely play a high C. It�s been this way as long as I�ve known him (at least 20 years).



Yeah - and I know a guy who plays fantastically beautiful long tones but whenever he is supposed to play sixteenth notes he sounds like crap!

Seriously - anecdotal evidence may be funny and personal (I�m sure we all have an abundance of weird and funny stories but this is not a very scientific way to build knowledge. Many discoveries seem to emerge out of what appeares to be chance, coincidences but that is not the whole truth.
It is said that one of the guys responsible for the first atomic bomb got his bright "Eureka" moment exactly at the moment he was halted by red light, crossing a street in London. Personally I�ve been halted countless times never ever having gotten a thought that smart. He had it coming!
Based on countless hours of thinking, studying, testing. Besides being one of the really smart ones.
When you suddenly see a pattern and thus are able to put up a hypothesis to find out if the results are replicable - then you have begun to make science.

Which leads me to a "meta"- thought: Mankind seems to have a certain faiblesse making personal discoveries the general and only truth.
Some cars are better than others but I think there is a tendency that we, after having bought a certain car after having scanned the market, now happlily declare "this is by far the best car I ever had"! A kind of self-deception. Same goes for my own profession - secterism is always a danger. Once I was asked "are you a Freudian" "nope" I said "I�m Seymor B Fudd"
Trumpet methods are by no means excluded from this. Of course one might argue that the method which helps most people should be the best one. But here are so many variables that it is very difficult to prove this or that. A certain method may attract a certain type of player, another method some other type. Just to mention one variable.
The BE method has had an impact on my playing as no other school I have tested. However the BE method does not necessarily have to be the only method that could have done wonders for me. I�ve played on an amateur basis in bands since 1959 no formal "horn education" until 3 1/2 years ago. I handled my playing by studying all kinds of schools, but Charles Colin become my main companion starting early seventies up to 3 1/2 years ago, after having re-installed my crashed embouchure by the kind help of a pro.
I might have had the same success with Claude Gordon, Doc Reinhardt, you name them. Honestly - I don�t know.

However I am a (sometimes too much)thoughful guy willing to discover new worlds and finding the BE has proved to be very good for me. I used to have "lip conditions" - not so anymore. One ingredient being these carefully executed double pedals, parts of a system.
Sorry for rambling on but I have spared you the rest so "this will have to do until the real thing comes on"!
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bike&ed wrote:
Unrelated to the debate between the greats here: I have a friend who has been a devotee of Callet’s methods for 30 years or more. He does really fantastic triple pedals, the best I’ve ever heard from any trumpet player. He can also just barely play a high C. It’s been this way as long as I’ve known him (at least 20 years).


Whether intended or not, there is quite a bit of innuendo in this post that amplifies common misunderstanding.

First, taken by themselves, there is nothing about extremely low pedals that guarantees anything good happening in the upper register. They need to be properly integrated into an overall approach.

Second, I have never heard Jerry Callet EVER advocate doing triple pedal C's. I suspect that you mean "double pedals" and not triple pedals.

Third, I have never played a triple pedal C in my life, and neither have any of my students.

And finally, the idea that someone has fixated his beliefs on a specific part of pedagogy - for example, the pedals - and has made very little progress in developing a full upper register, is actually quite common. It is not exclusive to fans of the Callet approach. There are advocates of every trumpet method who get stuck on one aspect of a method, and make little progress. The specifics vary, of course, but the results are the same.

Jeff
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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sheesh, all I’m trying to get across is that not every method works for everyone, even when applied rigorously (of course my friend practices all registers, articulations etc, he’s still a strong player overall). I actually do use the term “greats” out of endearing respect for both Jeff Smiley and John Mohan. The BE, CG, and Callet methods have been wonderful for many players. I had my first upper register breakthrough due to the teaching of a Gordon-trained trombone player.
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
RandyTX wrote:
I've seen Arturo perform live, when he was playing stuff down in the pedal range (beautifully by the way) that would have seemed low on a Tuba. He has a ridiculous range, both above and below the staff. Doesn't seem to be doing him any harm whatsoever.


Did you read what I posted? I did not write that practicing in the pedal range all the way down to Double Pedal C (which would be a Low C on a Tuba) was ever harmful.

I didn't say that you did. Comments about "Pedals Considered Harmful" have been around for ages, especially in certain sub-forums on this site.

John Mohan wrote:
... I shared my personal experience of a near disaster caused by practicing the notes down that low (well below Double Pedal C).

Fair enough as far as it goes, but your one-time injury, which may or may not have been directly applicable to how you chose to do pedal exercises does not a law of the universe make.

You seem to have taken my comment personally, for reasons that completely evade me. There have been four or five other people posting in this thread.

I'll see your Steve Martin video, and raise you the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CpFRCKxNQw


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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Randy,

Don't worry, I didn't take your post personally at all. I actually put the silly Steve Martin thing in to try to make that clear. It just didn't make much sense to me to see you point out that Arturo Sandoval hasn't suffered "any harm whatsoever" as some kind of rebuttal to what I wrote, given the fact that Arturo practices the pedals in same manner I do.

The only thing about the way I "chose to do pedal exercises" that caused the injury was that I took the exercises down too low. And a contributing factor was clearly the heavy amount of callous formation on my lip from performing 13 shows a week at the time. Doing pedal note exercises as taught by Claude Gordon and before him, Louis Maggio is not in any way dangerous or harmful (though a certain person made that allegation in this thread).

And to be clear, all I did was make a suggestion to the OP that he not take the Pedal exercises down below the Double Pedal C. The word "suggest" appears right in my first sentence to him. To suggest doth not a "law of the universe" maketh!

Best wishes,

John

P.S. Oh, and one last thing. Apparently you're confused. Yes, it IS all about me. After all, I'm a trumpet player!
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
Hi Randy,

Don't worry, I didn't take your post personally at all.

Cool.
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Pops
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Joined: 14 Sep 2002
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Location: Dallas (Grand Prairie), Texas

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been around a while.
I have heard a few people play triple pedals.

However:
They have never been in any book and are not a part of any program by Stamp, Maggio, Gordon, Callet or the other main proponents of pedals.

I personally always thought that if you used a little common sense then nothing was really off limits with playing and practice. But that means when trying something new, that you have to take it easy for a few days to see how YOU react to it.
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
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Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
trumpetteacher1 wrote:
Seymor, the difference between you and Mohan is that you do pedals in the way that Callet designed them, and not in the way that Claude Gordon recommended. Because of this difference, you will NEVER be harmed by doing the double pedal routine, as designed. Back in his heyday, Callet would do this routine up to 10 times per day, and never had any ill effects. Instead, he experienced the benefits of doing them properly, as you apparently do as well.

I've taught over 20,000 lessons and have never seen any type of injury from doing the Callet pedals. Very much the opposite.

In my experience on Trumpet Herald, there are way too many players here who do "Danger Danger Will Robinson!" type of posts, based on a very narrow way of interpreting trumpet pedagogy and an equally narrow way of viewing our ultimate human potential. Take most of those "danger" warnings with a grain of salt.

Jeff


Jeff,

You do understand that I am not saying one shouldn't practice the Double Pedal notes (down to Double Pedal C), correct? I only pointed out that Claude Gordon felt (and I agree) that there isn't any benefit in going lower than Double Pedal C, and in my case, it caused harm once.

I am very curious as to how you think the playing of the Double Pedals as taught by Jerry Callet is different from the way Claude Gordon taught us to play them (other than the fact that Claude had us hold the last note of each Pedal Note exercise until all air was exhausted and longer with an attempted crescendo to really work the blowing muscles and Jerry advocating practicing them down to well below Double Pedal C). I've spent some time today searching the Callet forum for information on the Pedals, and all I read are descriptions by Kyle and others that seem very similar to what Claude taught us. Please explain what you think is different between the two approaches (it's a sincere request).

Best wishes,

John


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