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the C emerges


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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:


And Jeff, had I realized you were a TCE player I would not have tried to explain my comments as I did, I simply thought you did not understand what I was saying as I am sometimes not as articulate as I would like to be and comprehension is also a variable issue. And I am sorry if Ive formed my views of TCE based on what I hear from Jerrys students and the few recordings Ive heard, please let me know if there is a better way. The reason I mentioned the CG system is that was a component of what John was talking about in the post that trumpetplanet objected to (that was clear had you read the entire thread). I will be happy to change my views given demonstration that shows me I am incorrect. And I never said anything about your ears, only mine. You seem a bit ‘touchy’ about this.
Rod


Rod, you are jumping from one erroneous conclusion to another. I did read the whole thread. There was nothing about CG which had anything to do with my response to you. Further, I am NOT a TCE player. You can ask anyone in the Callet forum. I have my own approach which works very well.

You are missing the point. You are condemning an entire system, and then demanding that I or someone else give you evidence to contradict your premise. Frankly, it says a lot more about you than anything else. If you were actually sincere about learning, then you would seek out answers by respectfully asking questions before making your blanket condemnations and rationalizations.

If I seem "touchy," it is because I know that Jerry Callet has helped thousands of players, including myself. Even at his age, he is actually "in the arena!" That is so much more meaningful to me than left-brained critics on the TH who tend to see only a very narrow picture, and who don't help anyone.

There is a bigger reality out there, and I hope that you find it. Really.

Jeff
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tptguy
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<<through selective hearing you are convinced that you are right>>

Though Rod doesn't make this clear, he's not referring to Callet students. He's referring to show attendees he heard at our around the Callet booth from a booth or two away. Attendees are students, amateurs, etc that come by to check out Callet mouthpieces and trumpets while they make the rounds of the show. He makes it appear that these people are Callet students, but they are actually students of other systems if not self taught.

I was at the ITG booth both days and here is accurate info on actual Callet students at the booth: Gary D. from NY, came to test the new Callet flug, has a solid high G on command but only played trumpet for a few seconds as a warm up. Kenny Robinson, Maynard alumni with big dbl C, visited the booth several times but I don't think he played a note. Olivier Theurillat, principal, Berne Symphony, played about 10-15 minutes while checking things over with Jerry. Olivier is a well known classical player and ITG clinician with a big, solid high G. But I don't think he played over high C on this day, perhaps a couple Ds or Es. Though not a Callet student, Walter White came by several times to pick out a new mouthpiece and played briefly each time. Maybe Walter is the weak player :>) My apologies if I forgot anyone, but the point is the same, the people playing at the Callet booth were not Callet students. Same was true at West Chester. I thought it important to clear that up. Best to all.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tptguy wrote:
<<through selective hearing you are convinced that you are right>>

Though Rod doesn't make this clear, he's not referring to Callet students. He's referring to show attendees he heard at our around the Callet booth from a booth or two away. Attendees are students, amateurs, etc that come by to check out Callet mouthpieces and trumpets while they make the rounds of the show. He makes it appear that these people are Callet students, but they are actually students of other systems if not self taught.

I was at the ITG booth both days and here is accurate info on actual Callet students at the booth: Gary D. from NY, came to test the new Callet flug, has a solid high G on command but only played trumpet for a few seconds as a warm up. Kenny Robinson, Maynard alumni with big dbl C, visited the booth several times but I don't think he played a note. Olivier Theurillat, principal, Berne Symphony, played about 10-15 minutes while checking things over with Jerry. Olivier is a well known classical player and ITG clinician with a big, solid high G. But I don't think he played over high C on this day, perhaps a couple Ds or Es. Though not a Callet student, Walter White came by several times to pick out a new mouthpiece and played briefly each time. Maybe Walter is the weak player :>) My apologies if I forgot anyone, but the point is the same, the people playing at the Callet booth were not Callet students. Same was true at West Chester. I thought it important to clear that up. Best to all.


Just to clear this up. Rod is probably wrong about all this and even if I’m not I’m willing to say I am to end it. I could definitely be wrong in assuming all TCE players have the sound characteristics I have identified as I have not heard them all, or any of the accomplished players you speak of as far as I know. Im really dont not accomplished enough to have an opinion that anyone who makes any part of their living from playing should care about or pay attention to. But what I can play sounds good. I will remember this when and if I post again. I am properly chastised for having formed erroneous opinions from hearing recorded and live TCE players.

Kyle its amazing to me that Jerry can get visitors and show attendees pumping dumbells and doing sit-ups and playing hi notes using their tongues, and spending half a day doing it around his booth as they did in West Chester. He must have special powers. You are correct I didn’t see anyone at ITG last year doing calisthenics, but I was less than 3 feet away around the corner and I did think I heard what I recognize as the TCE sound, it is quite distinctive. And by the way, I never said anything about TCE players not playing without power or without range, those are the strengths of the method as I perceive it, not the issues I spoke about.
Rod
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
To me it makes total sense that you, a guy who's a half foot taller and has 70 lbs more mass than me is going to have a natural set point about a half an octave higher (which requires about 45% more air power strength to reach).

Fortunately for us less-than-linebacker-sized folks, that the required amount of strength can be developed by practicing the correct material in the right way.


This is a joke, right? Or do you actually believe that someone's "natural ability" is based upon their size?


It's not a joke. But I did not write "natural ability" as you misquoted. I wrote "natural set point" referring to how hard they can blow. Perhaps I could have been more clear and written, "linebacker sized people have a natural set point in terms of blowing strength that gives them the physical strength to play higher notes than a weaker person would be able to play without further development." I am using the term "natural set point" to describe one's natural level of physical strength without further conditioning, not to describe their overall ability to play the trumpet.

trumpetplanet wrote:
When I was 12 I was about 5' high and skinny as a rake. I could also play high C with barely any physical effort. Explain that to me John - I really want to read this one.

If high playing was all about "air power strength" then the video in my signature wouldn't even be possible.... Neither the low notes or the high ones.


I agree - playing high notes is not "all about "air power strength"". It requires strength in not just the blowing muscles but all the involved muscles of the face and embouchure (and bicep ), and it requires coordination (the "knack" or "feel" of how to do it). Not incidentally, it also requires artistry if one is to play those notes musically.

Your description of yourself at age 12 sounds just like me at that age. And yes, skinny as I was, I could play high C's, too. But a high C only requires about half the physical blowing strength of a double high C played at the same volume (that was first proven by Arnold Jacobs and has been confirmed by several research studies over the years, including Blowing pressure, power, and spectrum in trumpet playing by N. H. Fletchera and A. Tarnopolsky, School of Aerospace and Mechanical Engineering, Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra 2600, Australia.

As for your claim that you could play high C's with "barely any physical effort", that is a subjective opinion. I think if you had played that high C during any of the research studies that have been conducted, and your intra-oral air pressure had been measured, it would have been found that you were creating about the same level of blowing pressure as others do to play that note.

Here's an interesting quote from the above-referenced study:

Quote:
Physiological measurements by Fiz et al.6 on the maximum expiratory pressure that can be achieved by trumpet players - not while playing the trumpet, or indeed while actually expelling air - yielded a value of 23 (+/-5) kPa, in confirmation of the general level of this result, while they found that similarly fit young men who did not play any brass instrument were able to achieve expiratory pressures of only 19 (+/-1) kPa. Presumably muscle training accounts for this difference.


Trumpet players on average have 21% more blowing strength than fit young men who don't play the trumpet. Do you still think air power's got nothing to do with it? We blow harder on higher notes than on lower notes. And when we are playing the highest full-volume note we can play, or when we are playing the absolute highest note we can play, we are blowing as hard as we can. To argue about that is pointless.

As to your video (which I haven't seen yet, but I will after completing this) I expect to hear some great playing including some great high notes. That's great! You've found the "feel" or "knack" of how to reach those notes and you have the strength to reach them. And it is quite possible you don't need as much strength to reach a particular note as the guy next to you. More efficient players can do more with less strength - no doubt about it. But whether it's Arturo Sandoval, Bud Herseth, Lynn Nicholson, Maynard Ferguson, or Wayne Bergeron, or you, or me, we all create our personal maximum air pressure to reach our highest notes. And it follows that somebody Wayne's size is going to naturally be able to blow harder than somebody my size. But that difference can be overcome through proper practice and development.

Best wishes,

John

[Edited to add the words "our personal" in the third to the last sentence.]


Last edited by John Mohan on Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MF Fan wrote:
I’ve had two instances in my 45 year amateur playing career where I’ve gained a 4th or better in a relatively short amount of time. The first was in I was in high school and over the summer I went from a solid high C to a G above. That came from playing the 20 minute G out of the Cat Anderson method. It was during this time I taught myself the basics of circular breathing, not well enough to ever use it outside the practice room, but it did enable me to leave the horn on my chops while playing the note for minutes at a time. It was essentially a super-long setting exercise. I gained a 3rd in the course of a couple of weeks, and had the G by the end of the summer. I retained a playable G throughout high school and college, playing lead in a variety of big bands.

The second experience happened within the past 3 months, which was the outcome of changing several variables. I’m going to get a bit long winded here, but who else can I tell this to that would get the significance? 😊

After a 30 year lay-off from the horn, I picked it back up a couple of years ago and started noodling around several days a week purely for the fun of it, no outside playing obligations. My goal was to play with a good sound as efficiently as possible. In that vein, when Lynn Nicolson released his MF Protocol video I bought it along with a small V-cup based on the Calicchio Maynard played in the 50’s. I learned to play the mouthpiece in all registers, but it was very inconsistent. As far as high notes go, I eventually worked up to hitting notes up to double D, but never in a consistent manner that would be reliable enough to use in a performance setting. So while fun to produce notes in that register, it was nothing more than a parlor trick as far as I was concerned, and it wasn’t easily replicated. Fast forward another year and I ended up getting a more middle of the road mouthpiece, a Steve Patrick version of the old Jet Tone 5B. Still small by most standards, but compared to the MF piece it was quite large. Over the past year my sound really opened up and my playable range was up to an F above high C. I had been playing probably 3-4 days a week, an hour at a time.

Over the past three months, two revelations occurred that led to some amazing gains. I stumbled across the “19/30’s” thread that talked about the Bill Adam approach for letting your chops find their own natural setting. It only took a few sessions of experimentation and it fundamentally relaxed my setup, moved my corners forward, etc. My sound really opened up and gave me much more flexibility. I also found my focus automatically shifted to breathing and support. Taking relaxed deep breaths became the focus, the chops seemed to take care of themselves. Hmmmm. My sound is now closer to the sound I’ve had in my head all these years, kind of a mix between Al Hirt, Maynard, and Harry James, a fat, sizzle kind of sound, and it is very efficient. I played that way for a month or so, no exercises, mainly playing standards in the staff, just enjoying the new sound and ease of playing. One day last week I thought to try unfurling a little more and added a little pucker, drawing on my experience with Lynn’s MF Protocol. I immediately found that I was able to play high C much more loudly will little chop effort. Hmmmm….Once I had a solid feeling on the high C, I popped up to the E. Still nice and loud and fat, no more lip effort, but I noticed I was automatically producing more compression in my torso to support it. I experimented a few minutes jumping to the High G and was hitting it solid. After each attempt I went back to low and mid register using my recently acquired 19/30’s set-up and found the sound and flexibility was still there. When I was playing these notes in the past on the Calicchio I’d start swelling and lose everything after 15 minutes. Being able to produce these notes while retaining my target sound and flexibility below high C was a major breakthrough. So I went for broke. Got the high C where I wanted and did the aprpegio C-E-G-DHC. All notes equally loud (FF) and fat. Holy crap! Dropped back down to the low and mid register and everything was still there. I’ve been experimenting with this for the past week and am starting to play tunes in this register. I can replicate it every day, repeatedly and haven’t lost anything below high C. Is it ready for prime-time outside the practice room? No, but now that I have a repeatable system that really works (for me) I’m highly motivated to build on it. I’m focusing on playing extended passages between High C and G, and can push to DHC virtually at will. It’s like I’ve discovered THE FORCE, but I’ve yet to harness it so it’s completely controllable. I eventually run out of gas, but I think it’s my blowing muscles and corners that are finally giving out, it’s not a result of chops swelling from undo pressure. I’m also sticking with my mid-range standards to ensure I’m not over doing it on the high stuff at the expense of the sound and flexibility I’ve gained in the low and mid-registers.

So for me it has been a series of self-discoveries that happened to build on each other and led me to where I’m at as of today. Again, I’m still playing no more than 3-4 hours a week, music not exercises. It wasn't a function of building strength, but finding my optimal set-up in terms of hardware and chops. I think Lynn would probably say I’m finally executing the MF Protocol as it was intended, and he’d probably be right. It just took me two years of experimenting with variables until I got there, and I think the order in which I changed things was also key. Don’t look for me to take over the lead chair in Gordon Goodwin’s band anytime soon, but I sure am having fun!


GREAT write up. I'm guessing because it is long, many people skipped or just skimmed it. I'm glad I read it. I love your description of discovering "THE FORCE". It's what Claude Gordon described as "the knack" of it. But your term also describes the excitement of the discovery.

Cheers,

John
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:
My point was to refute JM's insinuation that one's ability to play the instrument is based on nothing more than physical strength which is, at best, ignorant.


Again, if you think that is what I was implying, you grossly misunderstood me.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theslawdawg wrote:
Wow. Here come the ten foot tall bar-room brawlers through the computer screen.


Damn - I just got coffee up my nose.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grits Burgh wrote:
Quote:
bach_again posted:

Rod, give this a listen and report back.


I will concede that the player, whoever it is, is much better than I am. I would be pleased to play that well. The video started out very nicely. However, there is something about the articulation or phrasing that doesn’t appeal to me, for example at the :42 - :45 mark and again at the 1:00 minute mark. The playing is very good, but for me, less than the ideal approach. For purposes of comparison, this is for me the ideal approach and sound (on a different piece, but in the Baroque style):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrIrK85ypws

I prefer the articulations much better in this second clip.

Of course, this is simply my opinion. Right now, I am working very diligently to sound as good as the player in the recording that Bach_again posted and, as I say, I would be quite gratified to reach that level of proficiency. I am not willing to admit it to myself, but I am not likely to every reach that goal.

Warm regards,
Grits


Hi Grits,

I'm not sure you realize it, but the video bach_again posted is of music being played with baroque era style Natural Trumpets (no valves and very long so as to be able to play music using just the harmonic scale). Comparing it with the same type of music being played on a modern piccolo trumpet isn't really fair. For the type of instrument being played, I think that video of Bahb Civiletti is pretty impressive.

Best wishes,

John
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
I am properly chastised for having formed erroneous opinions from hearing recorded and live TCE players.


As have I been in the past, and will be in the future I'm sure.

In the meantime, it's time for me to get off the computer and practice.



Breath everyone.
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan posted:

Quote:
Hi Grits,

I'm not sure you realize it, but the video bach_again posted is of music being played with baroque era style Natural Trumpets (no valves and very long so as to be able to play music using just the harmonic scale). Comparing it with the same type of music being played on a modern piccolo trumpet isn't really fair. For the type of instrument being played, I think that video of Bahb Civiletti is pretty impressive.


John, quite right. I did not realize that it was a natural trumpet. That would explain the "lisp" in the articulation - no valves, all lip. I would have to agree with you, it is a pretty impressive performance. Just the same, my next purchase will be a modern piccolo trumpet, not a natural trumpet (at least it will be if Jeff Purtle can teach me to play the Bb horns I already have. To his credit - or shame- he has not yet thrown in the towel).

Warm regards,
Grits
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

not surprised to hear of a correlation between big people and trumpet playing. i always had the firm impression that derek watkins used his large physicality to produce his enormous range. you could say the same about arturo sandoval. these people are not in athletic training shape but are certainly in trumpet blowing form.
it is one approach and not the only one as there are great players in good athletic form.
under our current form of social organization it is unacceptable to persecute the big eaters so bon apetit dudes do as you wish.
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuck in ny wrote:
not surprised to hear of a correlation between big people and trumpet playing. i always had the firm impression that derek watkins used his large physicality to produce his enormous range. you could say the same about arturo sandoval. these people are not in athletic training shape but are certainly in trumpet blowing form.
it is one approach and not the only one as there are great players in good athletic form.
under our current form of social organization it is unacceptable to persecute the big eaters so bon apetit dudes do as you wish.


Chuck, great comments. Big eaters lives matters.
At 6’1, linebacker size, and very physically fit, I rely heavily on my frame for trumpet blowing. Would I do the same if I were a size “smedium”? Who knows...I love to eat too much.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theslawdawg wrote:
chuck in ny wrote:
not surprised to hear of a correlation between big people and trumpet playing. i always had the firm impression that derek watkins used his large physicality to produce his enormous range. you could say the same about arturo sandoval. these people are not in athletic training shape but are certainly in trumpet blowing form.
it is one approach and not the only one as there are great players in good athletic form.
under our current form of social organization it is unacceptable to persecute the big eaters so bon apetit dudes do as you wish.


Chuck, great comments. Big eaters lives matters.
At 6’1, linebacker size, and very physically fit, I rely heavily on my frame for trumpet blowing. Would I do the same if I were a size “smedium”? Who knows...I love to eat too much.


There may be some merit to that argument, but it doesn't explain Doc Severinsen, who in his prime was maybe 150 lbs wringing wet. He could (and still does) blow the bell off of the horn.
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spitvalve wrote:
theslawdawg wrote:
chuck in ny wrote:
not surprised to hear of a correlation between big people and trumpet playing. i always had the firm impression that derek watkins used his large physicality to produce his enormous range. you could say the same about arturo sandoval. these people are not in athletic training shape but are certainly in trumpet blowing form.
it is one approach and not the only one as there are great players in good athletic form.
under our current form of social organization it is unacceptable to persecute the big eaters so bon apetit dudes do as you wish.


Chuck, great comments. Big eaters lives matters.
At 6’1, linebacker size, and very physically fit, I rely heavily on my frame for trumpet blowing. Would I do the same if I were a size “smedium”? Who knows...I love to eat too much.


There may be some merit to that argument, but it doesn't explain Doc Severinsen, who in his prime was maybe 150 lbs wringing wet. He could (and still does) blow the bell off of the horn.


You are right. I'll start fasting.

My size works for me. Just for me, and the way I play. I have no idea if it's a factor. I leave that up to all you trumpet masters on here. All I can say is, I have very solid range and lead power but it could also be because of my mouthpiece, or Claude Gordon's teaching, or the MF protocol, or Caruso, or my horns, or my flip flops....

Doc is a legend and if his skills were attributed to his body frame, we would all be eating kale.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theslawdawg wrote:
Doc is a legend and if his skills were attributed to his body frame, we would all be eating kale.

Not even that would make me want to eat kale.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RandyTX wrote:
theslawdawg wrote:
Doc is a legend and if his skills were attributed to his body frame, we would all be eating kale.

Not even that would make me want to eat kale.



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Steve A
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spitvalve wrote:
theslawdawg wrote:


Chuck, great comments. Big eaters lives matters.
At 6�1, linebacker size, and very physically fit, I rely heavily on my frame for trumpet blowing. Would I do the same if I were a size �smedium�? Who knows...I love to eat too much.


There may be some merit to that argument, but it doesn't explain Doc Severinsen, who in his prime was maybe 150 lbs wringing wet. He could (and still does) blow the bell off of the horn.


I never saw either in person, but at least in pictures, neither Bud Herseth or Maurice André appear to huge, physically imposing guys, and they're certainly powerful players.

Similarly, when he was younger, Maynard Ferguson doesn't look like he was a huge guy either, and it's hard to imagine a more powerful player than him.

I don't think size has anything at all to do with playing, although if anyone who saw these guys in person would like to chime in on whether or not my impressions are correct, that'd be interesting to hear.
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deleted_user_02066fd
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll add Maynard in his prime to the mix. He weighed maybe 160-165 as a young man and if you never got to hear him as a younger man you were really missing something. He could peel paint with his power.
I met Lynn Nicholson years ago when he played with Maynard and a good stiff wind would have knocked him over. He was very thin.
I don't think Bud Brisbois was too large either.
I guess size can have an effect on your sound and power but it's no guarantee. I assume it's the same with physical strength as well. I have worked out regularly for 40 years and know a guy who is now in his 80's. He is one of the two or three strongest people I have aver met and he's 5ft 7 and about 160. I saw guys who outweighed him by 60-80 pounds who couldn't come close to pushing the same amount of iron in the gym as this guy. I met him when he was in his mid 50's and he could out lift much larger, younger guys by a wide margin.
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe having a High Range Development section of the site is a social experiment.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jetjaguar wrote:
Maybe having a High Range Development section of the site is a social experiment.


This whole site feels that way...
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