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OldKing
Regular Member
Joined: 26 May 2017
Posts: 89
Location: Boerne, TX
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 Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| _Don Herman wrote: | Some of the best teachers are not the best players, and some of the best players are not the best teachers. This happens in many fields, not just trumpet playing. There have also been similar threads on TH (TPIN, and others I'm sure). A teacher who has struggled may be better able to relate to your trials than a "natural" who has never had to try hard. The latter may not really have thought about what and how s/he does it (playing) and have difficulty conveying (or, transferring) his ability to the student. The "struggler" may have a much better idea of how to deal with issues, and in fact have a much bigger bag of tricks (range of ideas) to try when working with you.
FWIW - Don
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'Had to quote this 16 year old post. I experienced this at one of the better known music schools in the country. The gentleman was a prodigy. I learned from him and am honored to have been able to take lessons from him, but I learned a whole lot more from struggling teaching assistants/doctoral students there before then.
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For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? - 1 Cor 14:8 |
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TrumpetMD
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 2412
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Andy Del wrote: | | Teaching is NOT playing, it is something far more complex and far reaching than that. |
Good reply. In addition "teaching" is not "learning". They're related, of course. But they are independent activities. A teacher presents ideas. But a teacher can't transfer knowledge or skill.
Mike
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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Tpt_Guy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 1101
Location: Sacramento, Ca
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| TrumpetMD wrote: | | But a teacher can't transfer knowledge or skill. |
Doesn't this violate the very definition of teaching?
The purpose of teaching is to transfer or impart knowledge to another so it can be retained into the future. Part of this knowledge includes skills acquired through instruction and practice. If it weren't possible to do this, we would be dead as a species.
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-Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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StorkandBenge
Regular Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 40
Location: Connecticut
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:44 pm Post subject: Teaching is not a security blanket! |
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| The reason being that to be an excellent teacher requires a great amount of time. The same is true for being a great player. Being a first rate music educator should never be thought of a something to fall back on. It is far too important and difficult of a career and calling. Don't ever frown on great educators who chose their vocation over performance. They are both equally important and difficult. Until you walk a mile in someone else's shows, don't make assumptions. |
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Andy Del
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2662
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Tpt_Guy wrote: | | TrumpetMD wrote: | | But a teacher can't transfer knowledge or skill. |
Doesn't this violate the very definition of teaching?
The purpose of teaching is to transfer or impart knowledge to another so it can be retained into the future. Part of this knowledge includes skills acquired through instruction and practice. If it weren't possible to do this, we would be dead as a species. |
I suspect he means teachers can't make students learn the information presented. We certainly transfer knowledge, but the efficacy of that transfer is based on the student's engagement in the learning process.
The other facet of teaching is to engage the student, of course! That, in many places, is a deal breaker if the teacher cannot engage the kids at all. We do face issues with individuals, or cohorts due to the nature of that group, but by and large, reaching the kids and getting them to learn goes hand in hand with presenting good information.
And then there's no win situation. I just refused to continue teaching a college student as they simply are not engaging with what I was trying to teach them. (And the semester started almost a month ago!) I am figuring that a different person may have better luck. I certainly was not.
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so many horns, so few good notes... |
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TrumpetMD
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 2412
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| Andy Del wrote: | | Tpt_Guy wrote: | | TrumpetMD wrote: | | But a teacher can't transfer knowledge or skill. |
Doesn't this violate the very definition of teaching? |
I suspect he means teachers can't make students learn the information presented. |
I think Andy is pretty close to what I was trying to say. Also, FWIW, "information" is a set of data that has meaning, while "knowledge" is information that has been assimilated, structured, and applied (ie, a "skill"). Look up "data vs information vs knowledge" for a better explanation.
A teacher can present information. But a teacher can't force a student to assimilate that information into knowledge. Teaching is up to the teacher. Learning is up to the student. But I concede they are closely related, and likely have some overlap.
I brought this up to help clarify my belief that the best teachers as those who can present information in a way that helps their students to learn.
Mike
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 5860
Location: New Albany, Indiana
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:54 am Post subject: |
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The fallacy here (one that explains many of the flaws with learning trumpet on a forum like TH, BTW) is that learning a skill-based thing like trumpet playing is not mostly a matter of factual knowledge. It is in a certain way, but the knowledge is mostly not something that can be described with words, in print or in conversation. The knowledge is experiential and a person might know a lot of information about how the trumpet, physiology, etc. works without being able to create a real learning experience for the student that is appropriately targeted for that person's needs.
In my experience many great players are not able to explain or lead a student to do the things that they (the teacher) can do. They often make matters worse by trying to over think the process of playing. Most would be better off if they would simply demonstrate a great model for the student repeatedly and say, "Make it sound like this."
But people don't want to hear that, because it requires hundreds of hours in the woodshed to make it sound like that. Everyone wants a magic key.
_________________
Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com |
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Billy B
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Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 6130
Location: Des Moines
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| PH wrote: | The fallacy here (one that explains many of the flaws with learning trumpet on a forum like TH, BTW) is that learning a skill-based thing like trumpet playing is not mostly a matter of factual knowledge. It is in a certain way, but the knowledge is mostly not something that can be described with words, in print or in conversation. The knowledge is experiential and a person might know a lot of information about how the trumpet, physiology, etc. works without being able to create a real learning experience for the student that is appropriately targeted for that person's needs.
In my experience many great players are not able to explain or lead a student to do the things that they (the teacher) can do. They often make matters worse by trying to over think the process of playing. Most would be better off if they would simply demonstrate a great model for the student repeatedly and say, "Make it sound like this."
But people don't want to hear that, because it requires hundreds of hours in the woodshed to make it sound like that. Everyone wants a magic key. |
They also don't want to hear that because it goes against the western model of learning in general.
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Bill Bergren |
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 5860
Location: New Albany, Indiana
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: | | PH wrote: | The fallacy here (one that explains many of the flaws with learning trumpet on a forum like TH, BTW) is that learning a skill-based thing like trumpet playing is not mostly a matter of factual knowledge. It is in a certain way, but the knowledge is mostly not something that can be described with words, in print or in conversation. The knowledge is experiential and a person might know a lot of information about how the trumpet, physiology, etc. works without being able to create a real learning experience for the student that is appropriately targeted for that person's needs.
In my experience many great players are not able to explain or lead a student to do the things that they (the teacher) can do. They often make matters worse by trying to over think the process of playing. Most would be better off if they would simply demonstrate a great model for the student repeatedly and say, "Make it sound like this."
But people don't want to hear that, because it requires hundreds of hours in the woodshed to make it sound like that. Everyone wants a magic key. |
They also don't want to hear that because it goes against the western model of learning in general. |
And the commodification of knowledge.
_________________
Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com |
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dbacon
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 8592
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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DB
Last edited by dbacon on Sun Jun 19, 2022 7:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bill Ortiz
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Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 904
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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I think it's kind of important that the teacher is a good player-if you've had success with the horn you are better suited to help others achieve success as well. Being a great player is different-not all great players can teach, and many great teachers weren't great players. Being a good player certainly helps....
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'56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA |
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dbacon
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 8592
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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DB
Last edited by dbacon on Sun Jun 19, 2022 7:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JoseLindE4
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 791
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| PH wrote: | | Most would be better off if they would simply demonstrate a great model for the student repeatedly and say, "Make it sound like this." |
In The Art of Trumpet Playing, Keith Johnson relates a story from his first college teaching job. He was teaching both trumpet players and horn players (I might have the wrong secondary instrument in my memory). For the trumpet players, he gave them all sorts of trumpety teaching. For the horn players, he just taught like a musician, dealing with phrasing and sound. All along, he felt like he was shortchanging the horn players since they weren't getting as much information from him. When jury time came around, the horn players had, to his surprise, made more progress than the trumpet players.
Go figure. |
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dbacon
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 8592
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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DB
Last edited by dbacon on Sun Jun 19, 2022 7:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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SMrtn
Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Oct 2014
Posts: 367
Location: Spain
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Not much of a contribution to the knowledge database here, but whatever - I like Charlie Porter's playing. He also teaches. He taught me some stuff. Some stuff is good. |
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Trumpetingbynurture
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Joined: 18 Nov 2015
Posts: 898
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:12 am Post subject: |
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Best is if you both know what you're talking about and you can actually do the thing.
Worst is when you don't know what you're talking about and you can't do it either.
Also good is just to admit what you don't know and when the time comes to proactively hand the student off to the kind of teacher they need.
The trickiest part of teaching is always the bell curves of hard work and talent. You can't turn every student into Maurice Andre, even if you both wanted that. It makes it hard to properly evaluate effective pedagogy.. |
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