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Joey Green New Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2018 Posts: 1
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:14 am Post subject: Schilke HC2 |
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How does the Schilke HC2 play with a 3C mouthpiece. I ask because I am late in the 9th grade and looking for a good quality trumpet. I have been told to look at Schilke by my Dad's friend who plays trumpet somewhat professionally, but my private lesson teacher told me to look at the Bach Stradivarius. I am more drawn to the HC2 though because the finish is much prettier than the silver on the Strad, and also the large bore, which I know takes much more air to fill up, which produces a darker, fuller sound. So I guess the question is, should I stay with the 3C mouthpeice (I also own a 5C and a 7C but I like the sound the 3C produces) or should I invest in a different size mouthpiece? |
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theslawdawg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 843 Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:25 am Post subject: |
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What did your trumpet teacher say? _________________ My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:09 am Post subject: |
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theslawdawg wrote: | What did your trumpet teacher say? |
Do you mean other than what was already posted? |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:51 am Post subject: |
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The Schilke HC2 and the Bach Strad are both excellent professional trumpets. Neither horn will inherently favor any particular mouthpiece. Use the mouthpiece that works best for you. The mouthpiece that works best for you in one horn should work just as well in the other horn.
The Bach Strad is usually recommended because it's the safest long term purchase, not because it is necessarily the "better" horn. Your teacher really has no way to know what the "best" horn for you is in terms of its performance since your teacher has not heard you play everything available.
Even if your teacher had heard you on everything available the recommendation would be based on hearing you without being able to measure how the horn actually plays for you. So, teacher recommendations are not very valid in terms of the total performance of a horn and how well the horn personally fits you in those regards.
When people ask me for recommendations I tell them that if you're going to own only one trumpet the safest bet is the Bach Strad 37. The second safest bet is the Bach Strad 43. The reason these horns are the "safest bets" is because they are quality horns, lots of people play them (so you're more likely to match up with others in the section) and there is an excellent resale market.
That being said, no one is ever locked into a horn. You can sell it and get something else or you can get a second and third and fourth or more horns. This is not a life defining or career defining decision. So, if you like the Schilke better I say go for it.
Incidentally, the idea that a large bore horn "takes a lot more air" is a myth. The difference in volume between the inside of a large bore horn and a medium large bore horn is insignificant. Remember also that a horn is defined as "large bore" based only on the inside diameter of the second valve slide (the smallest slide on the horn). A "large bore" horn may actually be smaller than a medium large bore horn everywhere else.
Try out the Schilke and try out some Bach Strads and get what you like best. Most of all, HAVE FUN. At the end of the day that's what playing trumpet is all about. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1884
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:02 am Post subject: |
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I'd listen to your teacher. If you for some reason don't like the Schilke, then you will have a hard time selling it, whereas if you don't like the Bach, you will be able to sell it quickly. Plus, if you value your teacher's opinion, then you should consider it, since that is what teachers are for. |
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JoeLoeffler Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 243
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:20 am Post subject: |
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As a young, developing player I would strongly advise you against purchasing a large bore trumpet. They really do take a significantly larger amount of strength and technical facility to get the most out of them. I imagine the Handcraft feels comfortable and you can play just fine at loud dynamics. Unfortunately, I also imagine that your control will suffer significantly at softer dynamics. Also, it will probably feel great for the first 5 minutes but will really feel like work at the end of a long rehearsal.
As a high school student, you should really be looking for a horn that will allow you to sound your best in all of the ensembles you will find yourself playing in. You should also look for a horn that will work well sonically with the sounds that the best of your peers can make. In general, a horn with a “larger, darker sound” will not project in the same way that a horn with a more balanced, more standard “brilliant” sound. It is a trumpet, it is supposed to sound like a trumpet. If you are choosing the Schilke based soley on looks, remember that Bach trumpets can be purchased in lacquer finishes. |
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illegalbugler Regular Member
Joined: 18 May 2015 Posts: 66
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:40 am Post subject: Re: Schilke HC2 |
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The HC2 is actually an XL bore (.468) horn. But: see "A note about the irrelevance of bore size" http://everythingtrumpet.com/schilke/B%20flat%20trumpets.html.
If you expect to play the horn through high school, college, and beyond, get the horn that you want. If you think you might sell the horn in a couple years, then do what HERMOKIWI and Irving suggest: get the Bach. _________________ Schilke, Kanstul, Benge, Getzen |
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JoeLoeffler Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 243
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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That “bore size is irrelevant” stuff may be a nice thing that that guy says, but it is just not true. A horn may blow about the same, but a large bore horn requires much more strength and technique to play. In the case of the original Schilke instruments, all of them share the exact same leadpipe with he exact same Venturi size and receiver gap. Yes, they initially blow about the same but as you play for any length of time the inefficiencies of the large bore horns show themselves. If you have never played the Handcraft, they are truely huge. The bell is the large Schilke “O” bell. They are difficult to control in ensemble situations and at anything les than full volumes. (Even Wallace Roney moved on to something easier to control)
Please remember that we are attempting to give advice to a high school freshman.
Last edited by JoeLoeffler on Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2157 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Your mouthpiece is probably fine.
That choice of trumpet would likely be a horrible fit for you. Way to big for you to handle.
There are a lot more Schilke trumpets that would be a much better fit for you than the one you mention in your original post. Same can be said for Bach trumpets. Take a look at the lacquered Bach 190 series trumpets to see if you like that look.
Here's an idea: Along with your teacher, go to a store with a large selection of mainstream trumpets. Pick out a pretty one and have your teacher evaluate how you play it. If he says it works for you, get it. If he says it's not a good fit for you, pick out a different pretty trumpet. You want something that appeals to you, but you have to make sure it's a good fit for you or you will be struggling unnecessarily. |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7003 Location: AZ
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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Have any of you anti HC2 people actually played one for more than a few notes?
The HC2 is a very good trumpet that plays with great ease. It is very different from a Bach 37, but it doesn't take "way more air to fill up." This is one of the stupidest things we trumpet players ever write.
Large bore horns are not necessarily inefficient. I play one of the most efficient trumpets on the market, but it feels different to play it and one cannot rely on the horn to tell you when you are over-blowing. The player has to learn to measure dynamics by listening. What large bore horns DO offer is increased capabilities, as pertains to dynamics and tone colors.
To the OP: If you want to play a large bore horn and learn what it takes to master it, go for it!
By the way, Wallace went to Kanstul for the 1603+ to get closer to his beloved Martin in sound, feel and response. While the Schilke is a terrific trumpet, it is much brighter than the Martin Committee it was meant to emulate.
Yes, I'm in a nasty, intolerant mood, today. I will leave the OP with this: If you learn to play a large bore horn, you will have no trouble playing a good ML bore or even medium bore trumpet. But, if you only ever play a medium large bore horn, you won't learn what it takes to sound good and perform on a larger bore instrument. You might even end up writing the things these guys do. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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theslawdawg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 843 Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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shofarguy wrote: | Have any of you anti HC2 people actually played one for more than a few notes?
The HC2 is a very good trumpet that plays with great ease. It is very different from a Bach 37, but it doesn't take "way more air to fill up." This is one of the stupidest things we trumpet players ever write.
Large bore horns are not necessarily inefficient. I play one of the most efficient trumpets on the market, but it feels different to play it and one cannot rely on the horn to tell you when you are over-blowing. The player has to learn to measure dynamics by listening. What large bore horns DO offer is increased capabilities, as pertains to dynamics and tone colors.
To the OP: If you want to play a large bore horn and learn what it takes to master it, go for it!
By the way, Wallace went to Kanstul for the 1603+ to get closer to his beloved Martin in sound, feel and response. While the Schilke is a terrific trumpet, it is much brighter than the Martin Committee it was meant to emulate.
Yes, I'm in a nasty, intolerant mood, today. I will leave the OP with this: If you learn to play a large bore horn, you will have no trouble playing a good ML bore or even medium bore trumpet. But, if you only ever play a medium large bore horn, you won't learn what it takes to sound good and perform on a larger bore instrument. You might even end up writing the things these guys do. |
HC2 is a great horn! _________________ My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs |
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windandsong Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2006 Posts: 706 Location: Whitstable, UK
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:18 am Post subject: |
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Have to agree with this..
shofarguy wrote: |
Yes, I'm in a nasty, intolerant mood, today. I will leave the OP with this: If you learn to play a large bore horn, you will have no trouble playing a good ML bore or even medium bore trumpet. But, if you only ever play a medium large bore horn, you won't learn what it takes to sound good and perform on a larger bore instrument. You might even end up writing the things these guys do. |
I have a Schilke trumpet which comes under the heading XL bore and it doesn't feel that big to blow but the articulation is harder work to some extent.
However it's so rich and bright that it compensates in other ways and actually feels more responsive than my Strad depending on what I'm doing.
Slotting is an issue though. The Schilke is very slippery in the higher register and this can be an issue. I know mine is not an HC2 but I used to play a L bore Benge for years and I had the same issues. I had to be playing it all the time to be cool with it and it not distract me. This would never happen with my Strad. With the Strad you're just hitting nails all day long, you need slightly less brain power..
Food for thought.
G _________________ Bach 180/37
#7 pipe |
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Grits Burgh Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015 Posts: 805 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:56 am Post subject: |
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I've got a Schilke HC1 and a Back Strad. I like both horns. For what it is worth, here are my rookie comments:
- I prefer lacquer finishes on trumpets, not because they look better but because you don't have to polish them.
- Lacquer looks good new, but it wears. I don't know what happens to the lacquer, but over time it becomes duller and bits and pieces of it flake off. I have a 46 year old Strad that doesn't look that great. Frankly, I could care less. I don't have to polish it and it plays very well.
- Personally, I wouldn't purchase a trumpet based on looks, but if looks are important to you, fine. Just be aware that a lacquer trumpet won't look quite as pretty 10 or 20 years later (but you can have them re-lacquered).
- I don't notice that the Schilke is in any way more difficult to play then the Strad. For some reason which I could never but into words, I enjoy playing the Schilke more than the Strad, at least for solos. I haven't used it in section work and so have no opinion on that.
- You can't go wrong with a Bach Strad for high school and college. As mentioned previously, it is both easier to buy one used and easier to sell.
- Jeff Purtle, who knows a lot more about horns than I do, played both of my horns briefly and said, "I'd play that one", referring to the Schilke. But then, Jeff can play anything.
- I couldn't make up my mind between the two horns, so I bought them both. That's one way to solve the dilemma. I won't get rid of either horn until I can no longer play them - which, at my age, may be next week.
Warm regards,
Grits _________________ Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2157 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:26 am Post subject: |
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I tried an HC2 at HornTrader one day. I was surprised that it didn't feel any more open than any other horn that I've played. However, what surprised me was how hard it was for me to play above the staff. It was a real struggle.
However, I own a .468 Selmer K-modified. I don't struggle with that one at all.
So for me, it's obviously not bore size that makes the HC2 a bad fit for me; it's something else. |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Schilke HC2 |
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Joey Green wrote: | ... I am late in the 9th grade and looking for a good quality trumpet. I have been told to look at Schilke by my Dad's friend who plays trumpet somewhat professionally, but my private lesson teacher told me to look at the Bach Stradivarius. |
Both are quality instrument brands.
Joey Green wrote: | I am more drawn to the HC2 though because the finish is much prettier than the silver on the Strad, and also the large bore, which I know takes much more air to fill up, which produces a darker, fuller sound. |
Sound, playability, and quality of materials and assembly are much, much more important than a pretty finish. Believe me, you'd be kicking yourself later if you bought the pretty trumpet but then struggle to play it or to blend with the section.
Joey Green wrote: | So I guess the question is, should I stay with the 3C mouthpeice (I also own a 5C and a 7C but I like the sound the 3C produces) or should I invest in a different size mouthpiece? |
Settle on the trumpet first, using the mouthpiece you play now. You might make a slight change in mouthpiece configuration to get the most out of the new trumpet, but save that for later so you don't get confused with all the changes. For now, stick with a mouthpiece that fits your chops and works well for you.
I suggest you also consider these trumpet makes/models:
Yamaha Xeno 8335
XO Brass 1602s
Bach Stradivarius 180-37.
Good luck, and have fun! _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3619 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Irving wrote: | I'd listen to your teacher. If you for some reason don't like the Schilke, then you will have a hard time selling it, whereas if you don't like the Bach, you will be able to sell it quickly. Plus, if you value your teacher's opinion, then you should consider it, since that is what teachers are for. |
+1
I played an HC2 at the ITG a couple of years ago and my immediate reaction was "oh, oh, I'd get into trouble playing this horn!" It had a cornet-like sound and felt uncentered. Maybe it was that particular instrument, but when I see a bell throat that large, I start wondering how far off the intonation is going to be. That's also the problem with many Martins - they often have many notes in different places than what most of us are used to; a completely different scale. I say this despite the fact I have a Schilke X4B which is a fabulous trumpet.
So as a student, you ARE on safe ground with a Bach, just try several if you can because they can vary greatly as well. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:54 am Post subject: |
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JoeLoeffler wrote: | That “bore size is irrelevant” stuff may be a nice thing that that guy says, but it is just not true.
...... |
Nominated for one of the most uninformed posts ever on TH.....and there have been a LOT of uninformed posts here.
That “guy”, whether or not you agree with him, was a Chicago Symphony player and world renowned trumpet designer. Again, you may disagree with him, and that’s fine, but I think you might be a bit short in the credentials department, as would I certainly be, in comparison to a world class player and instrument designer/builder.
Here’s a bit of info about “that guy.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renold_Schilke
No offense intended, just my opinion.....mixed in with a few of those annoying darn facts.🙄
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Last edited by Brad361 on Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:06 am; edited 4 times in total |
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jengstrom Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Sep 2008 Posts: 427 Location: Rochester, NY
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:04 am Post subject: |
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You don't say how you settled on the HC2, as opposed to the other Schilke models. Was it only because of the finish? If so, buy a lacquered Bach.
Also, you don't say what kind of music you're going to focus on. If orchestra work is going to be more than a minuscule part of things, seriously consider going with Bach or (gulp!) Yamaha.
John _________________ Bach 43*
Bach 72*
Bach Chicago C
Yamaha YTR-761 D/Eb
Kanstul 1525
Bach 196 picc |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:28 am Post subject: |
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I usually will not comment on posts like this, but this time is a bit different.
You are not likely ready for the demands the HC1 will make on you. That horn is made for pros who understand what it can do and have the chops to make that horn sing. It is not "hard" to play, but it does require some serious skill to make it work.
As mentioned, there are other Schilke models that will be of much more benefit to you. Go to their website and read the descriptions of the horns. The descriptions are very accurate. There are many fine horns out there, Bach, Yamaha, and Adams just to name a few.
The finest Bach I have ever played is a new 190/37 in lacquer. It was simply wonderful from low G to G above high C. As good as my Schilke B1 is with a gorgeous Bach quality.
Do not be hung up on what a horn looks like. What it looks like is not terribly relevant. Modern lacquer is nothing like the lacquer used years ago and does little or nothing to inhibit or enhance the sound.
R. Tomasek |
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Brent Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Sep 2005 Posts: 1097 Location: St. Paul, MN
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:57 am Post subject: Horns |
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Good post Vin DiBona, I think you're spot on.
Given the OP is a 9th grader, perhaps choosing a horn that will work in various styles would work better than a HC2 might. Not to add fuel to the fire, but I too would be leery of someone that age playing an extra large bore horn as well.
Trent Austin would be a great 'go to' for advice. _________________ Brent |
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