Help needed for cornet valve problem

1957Tim

I have a friend whose young daughter is a beginner on cornet. She is playing the (1970) Olds Special cornet that her mother used to play, but is experiencing some problems with the valves. They are slow at times in coming back up, so I was asked if I could check it out for her.

I took the horn apart and gave it a thorough cleaning, especially the valves and the valve casing. This seemed to help some, but the valves are still periodically slow in coming back up. It seems the problem is magnified when playing a slow passage.

It appears the felts and corks were replaced at some point as they look fairly new, however, I don’t know about the valve springs. My friend doesn’t know if they were ever replaced either. Considering the age of the horn, I thought about ordering a set of valve springs to see if that would take care of the problem.

I’m curious what you guys would recommend. I’m trying to do a good deed here and save this young mother a repair bill.

I thank you in advance for sharing your thoughts.

-1957Tim

Crazy Finn · Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:30 pm Post subject:

More cleaning and a better oil.

What did you put on there?
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LittleRusty · Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:38 pm Post subject:

I had these symptoms with my '72 Strad. I eventually "solved" it by switching to a thicker oil on the recommendation of YourBrass after he checked out the valves. I switched to BerpBio Oil, but Hetmans #3 is also recommended for valves with more clearance.

It is a cheap thing to try. Just a bottle of thicker valve oil.

1957Tim · Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:24 pm Post subject:

I appreciate your response guys. Al Cass valve oil was in the horn case, so I’m assuming that’s what they’ve been using. After I cleaned it the first time I used Bach valve oil. The next valve oil I tried was Hetman #3, which made it worse. I cleaned the valve casing with baking soda, and then used a brush with soap, then a rod and cotton cloth. I’ve cleaned the horn three times so far, and thought maybe I should get some advice as this procedure usually takes care of any problematic valves I’ll dealt with in the past.

-1957Tim

LittleRusty · Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:42 pm Post subject:

Did you clean the ports between the valves?

Crazy Finn · Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:58 pm Post subject:

I'm not sure an abrasive like baking soda in the valve casings is such a great idea. But, what do I know.

This is starting to sound less like a lubrication issue than a mechanical one.

Olds valves aren't the tightest fitting ones around. Something like Hetman #3 should help that. But, if they're loose enough, it might bind a bit on the return, possibly regardless of the oil.

How much wear do they have?

Despite your reluctance, this might be something to consult a tech about.
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Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
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Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn

1957Tim · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:28 am Post subject:

I’ve cleaned the rest of the inside of the horn with warm soapy water and my snake brush. I couldn’t feel any looseness in the valves, but who knows. I do have several old Olds trumpets that I use Hetman #3 valve oil on because of worn valves, and it works great.

The baking soda trick was one I read about here on TH, and it has made the difference in several horns that I have cleaned up. I think that I am going to try one more cleaning, and if this doesn’t do it, like you suggested, I will wave the white flag of surrender and suggest they pass it off to a repair tech.

Thanks guys!

-1957Tim

TKSop · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:35 am Post subject:

First - you mentioned springs... at the end of the day, the springs are gone if they "bounce" at the top (push one down and let it go up - it should stop dead when it rextends itself), if not then they're probably okay.

Second - cleaning... you mention cleaning the valves and ports - to be sure, have you cleaned the valve-slides?
Where the inner legs meet the valvecasing, you can get muck build up and that will slow your valves down a lot.

Obviously make sure you've gotten all the old oil off and then try some different oil maybe (try a compression test - if the slides pop nicely a fairly normal weight oil should be fine, if you get no pop then you might want to try a thicker oil like Hetman#3 or Yamaha Vintage).

These are fairly simple self-checks - if you're still getting nowhere, it's time to take it to a good tech.

Richard III · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:34 am Post subject:

Your oil is too thick. The valves push it down and out and now you have no oil. Try much thinner oil, something like Hetmans 1 or Monster Adams. I have old horns that actually do better with thin oil. Surprising I know. You would think the reverse.
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Zan · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:41 am Post subject: slow valves

You may think about replacing the valve guides.

In the past I had spent time and money obsessing about slow valves on a horn of mine.

One day I decided to just replace the plastic valve guides and pow instant fix.
Cheap and easy... too bad I had not done that several dollars and hours prior.

V/r
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Louise Finch · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:22 pm Post subject:

Hi 1957Tim

As TKSop is saying, if you haven't already done this, I'd suggest cleaning the tubes between the valves.

You mention using a snake. I'm not sure what type you have, but I find the H W Brass Saver to be great:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/HW-Products-Brass-Saver-Trumpet-Brush/dp/B0002FP364/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1521925945&sr=8-1&keywords=hw+brass+saver

I find that I can get it round all the tubing. I use the H W Brass Saver dry as a tuning slide/leadpipe swab. I find the plastic chord easier to use than a swab with a chord and weight.

My second suggestion would be maybe trying a thinner oil if thicker oil makes it worse, and experimenting with the amount. I've found for example that my Yamaha horns like a liberal coating of Yamaha Synthetic Light valve oil, so sometimes more of a lighter oil is the way to go.

I'd try replacement valve guides next if changing the type/amount of valve oil does not work.

I really hope that this will help.

Best wishes

Lou
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RandyTX · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:28 pm Post subject:

There are a lot of things it could be, which might warrant taking it to a solid brass tech.

Something as simple as bumping a slide out of alignment (especially the one for the 2nd valve) can cause valve hangups in the block that no amount of valve oil or cleaning will correct.

You can't guess from a distance what might be really happening, especially if it's a new problem, rather than something that creeped up over time.
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TKSop · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:41 pm Post subject:

Lou - I wasn't talking specifically about the ones between valves, but rather the ones that go in and out of the valves (where casings meet the slide legs)

Louise Finch · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:50 pm Post subject:

Divitt Trumpets · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:43 pm Post subject:

Valves hanging on the way up is a sign of worn valves.

Thicker oil like Hetman 3 or Yamaha vintage can help.

LittleRusty · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:51 pm Post subject:

1957Tim · Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:07 pm Post subject:

Thanks for all the input guys. After several more cleanings today, and after trying the Hetman #3 one more time, to no avail, I decided to wave the white flag of surrender. I will be returning the cornet tomorrow with the suggestion that they have it checked out by a brass technician. If they do, this will undoubtedly be the cleanest cornet that has ever come in for repair.

I will let you guys know what the technician did to rectify the problem.

I didn’t mind investing some time on this project, but I don’t want to start replacing parts on someone else’s horn. I’m not a repair tech; just a hobby player who likes clean horns. Several years ago Flip Oakes did a little work on my trumpet. He told me this was the cleanest horn that had ever come into his shop.

Thanks again for taking the time to share you thoughts and experiences with me.

-1957Tim