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Problem with tonguing.



 
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Stanislav234
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Joined: 12 Sep 2017
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:18 am    Post subject: Problem with tonguing. Reply with quote

Hi everyone. What do you think is wrong with my tongue? I can quite easily slur to A/B above the staff (thanks to RO/RI exercises), but i'm having trouble tonguing above D in the staff (the higher i get, the slower tonguing becomes), my sound is also starting to sound tense and restricted. My way to tongue is KTM (still working on it).

While practicing BE i've always ignored TOL exercise, but month ago i've realized that it can be somehow helpful for my tonguing skill (although, i don't see TOL as main tonguing approach, i just don't like how it feels). So, i'm doing TOL now and can reach middle E/F (of course, they still sounding quite raspy and flat, but i think it needs time to improve).

And another thing that can make my problem more understandable for you: if i don't ascend by tonguing one note by another, and just slur to high note – nothing comes out. By trying to tongue i just restricting sound and making pitch go lower.
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Seymor B Fudd
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Joined: 17 Oct 2015
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:10 am    Post subject: Re: Problem with tonguing. Reply with quote

Stanislav234 wrote:
Hi everyone. What do you think is wrong with my tongue? I can quite easily slur to A/B above the staff (thanks to RO/RI exercises), but i'm having trouble tonguing above D in the staff (the higher i get, the slower tonguing becomes), my sound is also starting to sound tense and restricted. My way to tongue is KTM (still working on it).

While practicing BE i've always ignored TOL exercise, but month ago i've realized that it can be somehow helpful for my tonguing skill (although, i don't see TOL as main tonguing approach, i just don't like how it feels). So, i'm doing TOL now and can reach middle E/F (of course, they still sounding quite raspy and flat, but i think it needs time to improve).

And another thing that can make my problem more understandable for you: if i don't ascend by tonguing one note by another, and just slur to high note – nothing comes out. By trying to tongue i just restricting sound and making pitch go lower.



Frankly (1) I don´t understand your description! 1)You "can easily slur to A/B" - from which note?Low C or? 2)"trouble tonguing above D in the staff (the higher i get, the slower tonguing becomes)" - ?? Every note can be tongued or just "blown by forming your lips to a tight seal". In essence all notes should be approached by tonguing , ta ta ta (and of course Da Da TuTu Du du or every possible way starting a sound). At a speed that must be practiced - (listen to Al Hirt record "Paris" on the Performer thread,..)
No reason per se tongue should move slower high up - if so you´ll have to practice. 3)KTM - please clarify what you mean by that 4)sounds as if your main problem is the attack - which should be practiced TOL!!!!
5)then you contradict yourself - not using tongue you can´t slur - you stated that you could slur A/B (see 1). From your description I think your overall embouchure needs a complete overhaul!

Frankly (2) I suggest you go see a teacher! And I dont mean to be rude, just wanting to help you! And in all fairness - my comments are based on your description which I had a hard time to understand - maybe I´ve misinterpreted it all!?
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OldKing
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I second the teacher suggestion.

(I got lost in the acronyms.)
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I'll jump on the teacher suggestion as well.. even a Skype / Facetime lesson..

Quite often what we think we're doing, and how we explain it, is unrelated to reality... the teacher will be able to hear and see what's going on and will be able to suggest an approach to improve things.
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trumpetteacher1
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 2939
Location: Garland, Texas

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stanislav, you mentioned in another post that you may have a fundamental misunderstanding of BE. I think that you may be correct.

TOL is a foundational exercise, a source of stability. If you can't do TOL properly, you shouldn't do the RI and RO exercises. They will likely only cause your embouchure more confusion. And if you add anchor tonguing to that already unstable mix...

It's easy to get lost if you listen to too many opinions on TH. I would be happy to evaluate your exercises if you send me a video. I do this all the time. Personally, I have heard the BE exercises done every wrong way possible, so I know that the book is not always enough.

Jeff
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Stanislav234
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Joined: 12 Sep 2017
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: Problem with tonguing. Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
Stanislav234 wrote:
Hi everyone. What do you think is wrong with my tongue? I can quite easily slur to A/B above the staff (thanks to RO/RI exercises), but i'm having trouble tonguing above D in the staff (the higher i get, the slower tonguing becomes), my sound is also starting to sound tense and restricted. My way to tongue is KTM (still working on it).

While practicing BE i've always ignored TOL exercise, but month ago i've realized that it can be somehow helpful for my tonguing skill (although, i don't see TOL as main tonguing approach, i just don't like how it feels). So, i'm doing TOL now and can reach middle E/F (of course, they still sounding quite raspy and flat, but i think it needs time to improve).

And another thing that can make my problem more understandable for you: if i don't ascend by tonguing one note by another, and just slur to high note – nothing comes out. By trying to tongue i just restricting sound and making pitch go lower.



Frankly (1) I don´t understand your description! 1)You "can easily slur to A/B" - from which note?Low C or? 2)"trouble tonguing above D in the staff (the higher i get, the slower tonguing becomes)" - ?? Every note can be tongued or just "blown by forming your lips to a tight seal". In essence all notes should be approached by tonguing , ta ta ta (and of course Da Da TuTu Du du or every possible way starting a sound). At a speed that must be practiced - (listen to Al Hirt record "Paris" on the Performer thread,..)
No reason per se tongue should move slower high up - if so you´ll have to practice. 3)KTM - please clarify what you mean by that 4)sounds as if your main problem is the attack - which should be practiced TOL!!!!
5)then you contradict yourself - not using tongue you can´t slur - you stated that you could slur A/B (see 1). From your description I think your overall embouchure needs a complete overhaul!

Frankly (2) I suggest you go see a teacher! And I dont mean to be rude, just wanting to help you! And in all fairness - my comments are based on your description which I had a hard time to understand - maybe I´ve misinterpreted it all!?


1. Yes, i can slur starting with low C.

2. I mean, i can't tongue these notes because my tongue takes an unfamiliar position where i can't figure out how to attack notes correctly.

3. This is the way of tonguing, where is my tongue tip rests slightly behind bottom teeth.

4. By saying this, i meant that i can slur to high note, but can't tongue it then. But if i tongue every note from the start, there is possibility i can attack it (not in the best way). Too hard to explain it in foreign language, but i hope you understand.

Yes, seeing a teacher is great suggestion. But believe or not, in the place i live, there is no trumpet teachers apart from college/conservatory (and they are not interested in amateurs). So, i will scratch up some money and finally contact good teacher from US.
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Stanislav234
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Joined: 12 Sep 2017
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
Stanislav, you mentioned in another post that you may have a fundamental misunderstanding of BE. I think that you may be correct.

TOL is a foundational exercise, a source of stability. If you can't do TOL properly, you shouldn't do the RI and RO exercises. They will likely only cause your embouchure more confusion. And if you add anchor tonguing to that already unstable mix...

It's easy to get lost if you listen to too many opinions on TH. I would be happy to evaluate your exercises if you send me a video. I do this all the time. Personally, I have heard the BE exercises done every wrong way possible, so I know that the book is not always enough.

Jeff


Thank you for answer! What kind of video will be best for you to see weak points in my playing?

And what is perfect TOL? Is it just touching the lip with the tip of the tongue, or building some pressure with the tip of the tongue on top lip and quickly releasing it, making short and powerful burst of air (literally, spitting)?
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trumpetteacher1
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 2939
Location: Garland, Texas

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a video, just use a camera angle where your embouchure is visible, and play an entire BE exercise (one you struggle doing). Good audio is also a plus.

Yes, perfect TOL is more like spitting out a seed, with a fairly strong percussive attack. Notes must remain connected, with no air pause in between.

Jeff
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Stanislav234
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Joined: 12 Sep 2017
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
For a video, just use a camera angle where your embouchure is visible, and play an entire BE exercise (one you struggle doing). Good audio is also a plus.

Yes, perfect TOL is more like spitting out a seed, with a fairly strong percussive attack. Notes must remain connected, with no air pause in between.

Jeff


I hope i'll make video in the next week and send it to you.

Maybe i'm doing TOL close enough to the right way, because it gives me very strong attack and term "percussive" sounds very right in this context. Exercise itself feels pretty uncomfortable (i have to shift my mouth down a bit), but i think that i'll get used to it.
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