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completely re-designed trumpet, doesn't need intonation aids


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jetjaguar
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:50 pm    Post subject: completely re-designed trumpet, doesn't need intonation aids Reply with quote

A while back I saw the website of a new trumpet that is plumbed completely differently. The pipes are in different places, and it claims to play in tune and doesn't need intonation aids, otherwise known as triggers. I can't remember if it was on here, or TM, or elsewhere. The inventor is in Europe, I believe.

Can someone remind me of the name or website of that horn please?

Thanks
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oxleyk
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This one? http://jeromewiss.com/en/

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=141043&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


Last edited by oxleyk on Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jetjaguar
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oxleyk wrote:
This one? http://jeromewiss.com/en/


Thanks very much!
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a compensating system. They were put on cornets in the early 20th century as well as still put on baritones, euphoniums and tubas in the brass band side of things.

It would take some pretty clever acoustic treatment to make them totally in tune - most compensating instruments are also quite stuffy...

It would be very interesting to play o none, but it doesn't seem to be available.

cheers

Andy
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:16 am    Post subject: Re: completely re-designed trumpet, doesn't need intonation Reply with quote

jetjaguar wrote:
A while back I saw the website of a new trumpet that is plumbed completely differently. The pipes are in different places, and it claims to play in tune and doesn't need intonation aids, otherwise known as triggers. I can't remember if it was on here, or TM, or elsewhere. The inventor is in Europe, I believe.

Can someone remind me of the name or website of that horn please?

Thanks


How could anything be "automatically" in tune when the scale-system as we know it is sort of a compromise - "das wohltemperirte Klavier"??
There is no such thing as an algorithm solving the pitches because we have come to an agreement of what constitutes being in tune.

So the idea of an instrument (whatever it may be)not needing any compensation seems as elusive as the holy Grail.
By the help of some compensation (in my view more or less necessary) one then has to use the ears to play in what we call "in tune".
Then some instrument are worse in these respects than other and again some pretty balanced - but but!!
Or??
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a repairman, I can tell you that dent work on the external compensating tubing would be very difficult and time consuming (read expensive).
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homebilly
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have played his prototypes and loved them!

they are completely hand made by Jerome. everything

very in tune and OPEN. just the way i like it

Jerome is a very nice cat too!


BUT as you can see in the other thread we did a good job of running him off!!!!
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless a horn just has squirrelly intonation on several notes, when one says "play in tune and doesn't need intonation aids", I automatically think of removing tuning devices on the first and third valve slides. Didn't a Committee do that?
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VintageFTW
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now here's an idea: Try and see if it would be possible to purchase just the valve section. With this, install a Pilczuk leadpipe. I think that would be something really special. From here one could match a bell and wallah! It has the potential to be a new breed of frankenhorn that may or may not have near perfect intonation.

EDIT: I just realized that if it were possible to make the horn modular (as in swappable bells) and with adjustable bracing, it might be the ultimate in a fully customizable setup. The beauty of this is that Pilczuk leadpipes aren't just hype, they really can markedly improve the intonation and playability of any horn. With compensating valve systems, especially if this one really is improved from the past, it should help on a fundamental level, regardless of other design variables.
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: completely re-designed trumpet, doesn't need intonation Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
How could anything be "automatically" in tune when the scale-system as we know it is sort of a compromise - "das wohltemperirte Klavier"??
There is no such thing as an algorithm solving the pitches because we have come to an agreement of what constitutes being in tune.

"Automatically" in tune is probably an exaggeration. Okay, it is an exaggeration.

But it's no exaggeration to say that, if a 3-valve trumpet were designed so that each slide used when its corresponding valve is pressed were the perfect length to make that interval in tune, then the instrument would be increasingly out-of-tune when using combinations of valves together. The slides would be long enough when using only one valve at a time, but would be too short when using several valves in combination. That's why we have to extend the slide(s) when we play a low C#, for example.

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
So the idea of an instrument (whatever it may be)not needing any compensation seems as elusive as the holy Grail.
By the help of some compensation (in my view more or less necessary) one then has to use the ears to play in what we call "in tune".


There's a clever design of valves and their associated slides, called a "compensating" system, that's available on some low brass instruments, especially professional-quality euphoniums and tubas. With this system, the normal slide is used when just one valve is pressed down by itself. But when a combination of valves is used, additional slides are added to the air flow path of the instrument to provide the extra length needed to play in tune. Not "automatically" in tune, but closer to the proper interval so the necessary adjustments to be made by the player don't have to be so drastic.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's one more aspect to the compensating system as seen in brass band instruments - they are very stuffy. All the extra bits tubing act to make the feel quite restrictive. Some instruments have oversized 4th valves and extra bits to try to make up for this.

This is the reason most professional tubas have a 5th valve, and the capacity to move valve slides. Just like trumpet payers do.

cheers

Andy
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:56 am    Post subject: Re: completely re-designed trumpet, doesn't need intonation Reply with quote

dstdenis wrote:
Seymor B Fudd wrote:
How could anything be "automatically" in tune when the scale-system as we know it is sort of a compromise - "das wohltemperirte Klavier"??
There is no such thing as an algorithm solving the pitches because we have come to an agreement of what constitutes being in tune.

"Automatically" in tune is probably an exaggeration. Okay, it is an exaggeration.

But it's no exaggeration to say that, if a 3-valve trumpet were designed so that each slide used when its corresponding valve is pressed were the perfect length to make that interval in tune, then the instrument would be increasingly out-of-tune when using combinations of valves together. The slides would be long enough when using only one valve at a time, but would be too short when using several valves in combination. That's why we have to extend the slide(s) when we play a low C#, for example.

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
So the idea of an instrument (whatever it may be)not needing any compensation seems as elusive as the holy Grail.
By the help of some compensation (in my view more or less necessary) one then has to use the ears to play in what we call "in tune".


There's a clever design of valves and their associated slides, called a "compensating" system, that's available on some low brass instruments, especially professional-quality euphoniums and tubas. With this system, the normal slide is used when just one valve is pressed down by itself. But when a combination of valves is used, additional slides are added to the air flow path of the instrument to provide the extra length needed to play in tune. Not "automatically" in tune, but closer to the proper interval so the necessary adjustments to be made by the player don't have to be so drastic.


Yes I meant it as an exaggeration . Also I´m aware of different compensating systems (e.g. the euphoniums in my brass band have an extra valve).
Different horns might differ in these respcects; e.g. my new Bach needs more fiddling (compensation) with first valve slide than my old King when I play a Db. It might be possible to compensate this adjusting your way of playing. For some years I missed that my band had raised the pitch to 442 - I used the old one, 440; nothing much to argue about - no one ever complained and I did play in tune - anyhow when I discovered and changed I could notice I had gotten rid of "something demanding a certain effort".....
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to offer a quote by Monsieur Wiss himself from his original post announcing his design:

"Concerning the valve system, it's the oposite of a compensating system.
For me, the compensating system is the worst system ever made because your valves are like a Swiss cheese (with a lot of holes). And that is very bad for the sound. My system as only 2 tube per valve (normaly 3) and without any strangulation on the bore."

Traditional compensating systems have more than the usual three air passages through some or all of the valve pistons in order to route the airflow through different dedicated combinations of tubing when multiple valves are pressed. As dstdenis pointed out, that is how such systems are able to "automatically" stay closer to being in tune -- the tubing dedicated to airflow for the multi-valve notes can be made longer to keep the notes closer to being in tune (the open and single-valve notes, having their own dedicated tubing, are not affected).

The complex tubing entering and leaving the Wiss valve block enables something rather different -- the ability to utilize pistons with only two air passages, as opposed to the usual three. If a compensating effect is achieved based on which combinations of tubes connecting the valve cylinders are included when multiple valves are pressed, then Monsieur Wiss has invented something remarkable -- a compensating system that avoids being excessively constrictive and appears to weigh little (if at all) more than its non-compensating counterpart.


Last edited by Halflip on Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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Zan
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi folks.
I don't post that often, but I wanted to chime in on this topic. Please don't feel offended by anything I write. It's not intended to pick and point at folks.

first of all, we all should understand that the idea of being perfectly "in tune" is idiotic. No instrument is perfectly in tune (get off of it). There is always some variance in harmonic structure that changes during harmonic movement (look up Just Intonation). Sure we can argue the tempered scale intonation etc etc ... But that really only applies to an instrument called a piano (and it's variations).
If this trumpet is suppose to improve the, give and take and sacrifices made to the modern trumpet, then great!

So... stop bantering on and on about " ..is this trumpet perfectly in tune or not?..." Put these arguments to rest.

More importantly is:
Does this horn play well?

Has anyone here, actually played one or are we all just making speculations about it?

I am interested in it, but can not seem to get a response from the company.
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homebilly
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

homebilly wrote:
i have played his prototypes and loved them!

they are completely hand made by Jerome. everything

very in tune and OPEN. just the way i like it

Jerome is a very nice cat too!


BUT as you can see in the other thread we did a good job of running him off!!!!

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Halflip
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zan wrote:
So... stop bantering on and on about " ..is this trumpet perfectly in tune or not?..." Put these arguments to rest.


I reviewed all the posts in this thread, and I didn't really see "bantering on and on" about whether or not the Wiss trumpet is "perfectly" in tune. However, I have adjusted my post (see underlined verbiage) so that it is clear that I am not speculating on the topic of "perfect" intonation.

For me, the most impressive thing about this horn is the valve architecture which permits only two air passages per piston. I am impressed by this (from a design perspective) even if the horn plays no better than a conventional instrument! And this aspect of the design is not speculation; it is a fact.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Halflip wrote:
Zan wrote:
So... stop bantering on and on about " ..is this trumpet perfectly in tune or not?..." Put these arguments to rest.


I reviewed all the posts in this thread, and I didn't really see "bantering on and on" about whether or not the Wiss trumpet is "perfectly" in tune. However, I have adjusted my post (see underlined verbiage) so that it is clear that I am not speculating on the topic of "perfect" intonation.

For me, the most impressive thing about this horn is the valve architecture which permits only two air passages per piston. I am impressed by this (from a design perspective) even if the horn plays no better than a conventional instrument! And this aspect of the design is not speculation; it is a fact.



I took a deeper look at the wonders of Monsieur Wiss. Very interesting indeed. While looking somewhat "contraptional" to a viewer accustomed to ordinary horns it´s intriguing. I sure would like to test one!
So - he might have built a horn that does not require fiddling with slides etc. As you write, only two air passages should make a difference. But - this alone does not make it "automatically" in tune. Easier to play in tune yes, perhaps easier to play per se, but the player behind it still will have to rely on his ears, well tempered or not.
Also I found his design of mouthpieces fascinating - as I have migrated to V-cups myself.
Sorry to say some inventors are quite ahead of their time. Hopefully his designs will be tested by curious pros!
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iiipopes
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing new. This is a re-hash of the original Boosey-Blaikley patent of over 100 years ago.

http://www.adirondackbranch.net/wbc18.html

Some horns have features that can help intonation, but in the end it is up to the player. In this case, triggers or rings and slides are easier to manipulate on a small horn like a trumpet or cornet, and the compensating tubing is better for lower brass.

Weight and cost of manufacturing are the real reasons that Boosey discontinued making compensating cornets.
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iiipopes wrote:
Nothing new. This is a re-hash of the original Boosey-Blaikley patent of over 100 years ago.

http://www.adirondackbranch.net/wbc18.html

Some horns have features that can help intonation, but in the end it is up to the player. In this case, triggers or rings and slides are easier to manipulate on a small horn like a trumpet or cornet, and the compensating tubing is better for lower brass.

Weight and cost of manufacturing are the real reasons that Boosey discontinued making compensating cornets.


It's not a rehash. It's quite different.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The beauty of art is in it's imperfections.
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