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Mt. Vernon Mouthpiece Re-Plate



 
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trompette24
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:53 am    Post subject: Mt. Vernon Mouthpiece Re-Plate Reply with quote

I recently had a Mt. Vernon 1 1/2C re-plated. I understand the prestige of keeping of vintage mouthpiece/ instrument in original condition, but does it "lower the value" if the mouthpiece, which is in great physical condition, gets re-plated. About half the original plating was missing, mainly around the rim making it almost unplayable, at least safely.

I know this is likely subjective, but I'm curious as to people's thoughts on this matter.

Thank you.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you run into either a snob or someone trying to commit highway robbery then yes it will hurt the value.

However, if I were a prospective buyer, I would be looking at the intrinsic value of the mouthpiece which is determined more by how it plays than how it's plated. In my opinion, Mt. Vernon pieces are more valuable mostly because of their playing characteristics, not because they are stamped "Mt Vernon." Yes, collector status helps, but in my eyes, not by much.
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Mt. Vernon Mouthpiece Re-Plate Reply with quote

trompette24 wrote:
I recently had a Mt. Vernon 1 1/2C re-plated. I understand the prestige of keeping of vintage mouthpiece/ instrument in original condition, but does it "lower the value" if the mouthpiece, which is in great physical condition, gets re-plated. About half the original plating was missing, mainly around the rim making it almost unplayable, at least safely.

I know this is likely subjective, but I'm curious as to people's thoughts on this matter.

Thank you.


I have a New York 1 that was literally completely raw brass, so I had to do something. Anderson's did a great job on the gold plating. I figure it's mine, I love it, and I want it to look as good as it plays. If this affects someone else's interest, it matters not as it isn't leaving my hands.
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dbacon
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Mt. Vernon Mouthpiece Re-Plate Reply with quote

dr_trumpet wrote:
trompette24 wrote:
I recently had a Mt. Vernon 1 1/2C re-plated. I understand the prestige of keeping of vintage mouthpiece/ instrument in original condition, but does it "lower the value" if the mouthpiece, which is in great physical condition, gets re-plated. About half the original plating was missing, mainly around the rim making it almost unplayable, at least safely.

I know this is likely subjective, but I'm curious as to people's thoughts on this matter.

Thank you.


I have a New York 1 that was literally completely raw brass, so I had to do something. Anderson's did a great job on the gold plating. I figure it's mine, I love it, and I want it to look as good as it plays. If this affects someone else's interest, it matters not as it isn't leaving my hands.


Did the rim remain the same when you had your N.Y. 1 replated?

Thanks!
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trompette24
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Mt. Vernon Mouthpiece Re-Plate Reply with quote

dr_trumpet wrote:


I have a New York 1 that was literally completely raw brass, so I had to do something. Anderson's did a great job on the gold plating. I figure it's mine, I love it, and I want it to look as good as it plays. If this affects someone else's interest, it matters not as it isn't leaving my hands.


My thoughts exactly. I had mine plated in gold because it needed to be plated. Now it's 100% usable. Thanks for the input!
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Mt. Vernon Mouthpiece Re-Plate Reply with quote

dr_trumpet wrote:
I have a New York 1 that was literally completely raw brass, so I had to do something. Anderson's did a great job on the gold plating. I figure it's mine, I love it, and I want it to look as good as it plays. If this affects someone else's interest, it matters not as it isn't leaving my hands.


I have a Mt. Vernon 3 that has been worn down to raw brass. The exterior has also been a bit chewed up, looking like someone tried to remove it from a horn using pliers. (I didn't do that - I know better!) The rim and shank end are fine and the mouthpiece isn't bent at all.

I plan to send it off to be restored and replated. I know it won't look perfect, but it has a buttery smooth sound, and that's all that matters.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:44 am    Post subject: Re: Mt. Vernon Mouthpiece Re-Plate Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:
dr_trumpet wrote:
I have a New York 1 that was literally completely raw brass, so I had to do something. Anderson's did a great job on the gold plating. I figure it's mine, I love it, and I want it to look as good as it plays. If this affects someone else's interest, it matters not as it isn't leaving my hands.


I have a Mt. Vernon 3 that has been worn down to raw brass. The exterior has also been a bit chewed up, looking like someone tried to remove it from a horn using pliers. (I didn't do that - I know better!) The rim and shank end are fine and the mouthpiece isn't bent at all.

I plan to send it off to be restored and replated. I know it won't look perfect, but it has a buttery smooth sound, and that's all that matters.



Then I can tell that my Vincent Bach Mount Vernon NY 1 1/2 (which I used playing the soprano in my brassband)once came into the hands of another player; he managed to get it firmly stuck - so he told me - and used a polygrip (plier) to pull it out with the result it was severly scratched.
Now and then I take a look upon it, sighing...
Also the rim has some scars - but - I can´t say it doesn´t work....
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chapahi
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a late 30's era ny bach 10 1/2 c replated by Bob Reeves. Instead of buffing off the old plating, he removed it with an electrolitic process so as to preserve the original form. Some pitting remains even. Otherwise you end up with a different mouthpiece.
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boog
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom Green restored my Mt. Vernon 7c I got new in the 7th grade. Tom did a great job on it, plays like it always did. He evened up the shank, which had a minor whack, and chamfered if (ala Early Schilke). All at a VERY reasonable price. I was glad to get it refinished, as my face grew up with that piece stuck to it, and I can tell it without looking!

Mt. Vernon pieces are like snowflakes. They are all different feeling and sounding. I have 4 Mt. Vernon 7C's and they all feel and play slightly different. A favorite lead piece of mine is an Early (1950's) Mt. Vernon 7C with a 41 backbore. Nice!

Now if they were all MV 3C's, I would be sitting on a fortune! The 7's have better lower register sound, IMO.
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Mt. Vernon Mouthpiece Re-Plate Reply with quote

dbacon wrote:
dr_trumpet wrote:
trompette24 wrote:
I recently had a Mt. Vernon 1 1/2C re-plated. I understand the prestige of keeping of vintage mouthpiece/ instrument in original condition, but does it "lower the value" if the mouthpiece, which is in great physical condition, gets re-plated. About half the original plating was missing, mainly around the rim making it almost unplayable, at least safely.

I know this is likely subjective, but I'm curious as to people's thoughts on this matter.

Thank you.


I have a New York 1 that was literally completely raw brass, so I had to do something. Anderson's did a great job on the gold plating. I figure it's mine, I love it, and I want it to look as good as it plays. If this affects someone else's interest, it matters not as it isn't leaving my hands.


Did the rim remain the same when you had your N.Y. 1 replated?

Thanks!


Yes. I talked with Anderson's when they got the mouthpiece, and they assured me they would buff the rim as little as possible to plate it. The rim came back feeling none the different, and it looks great.
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Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
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Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Instructor of Trumpet/Brass, Marian University (IN)
Endorsing Professor, Torpedo Bags
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boog wrote:
Tom Green restored my Mt. Vernon 7c I got new in the 7th grade. Tom did a great job on it, plays like it always did. He evened up the shank, which had a minor whack, and chamfered if (ala Early Schilke). All at a VERY reasonable price. I was glad to get it refinished, as my face grew up with that piece stuck to it, and I can tell it without looking!

Mt. Vernon pieces are like snowflakes. They are all different feeling and sounding. I have 4 Mt. Vernon 7C's and they all feel and play slightly different. A favorite lead piece of mine is an Early (1950's) Mt. Vernon 7C with a 41 backbore. Nice!

Now if they were all MV 3C's, I would be sitting on a fortune! The 7's have better lower register sound, IMO.


I have a New York 7C that plays and feels far more like a 3C than a 7C. Rim is more rounded with the high point more toward the center of the rim, cup is differing in shape from a current 7C, and the mass of the mouthpiece is a little different (tulip shape is "meatier", for lack of a better way to describe it). I love the piece and am amazed how different it is from more modern 7C pieces.
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boog
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dr_trumpet wrote:


I have a New York 7C that plays and feels far more like a 3C than a 7C. Rim is more rounded with the high point more toward the center of the rim, cup is differing in shape from a current 7C, and the mass of the mouthpiece is a little different (tulip shape is "meatier", for lack of a better way to describe it). I love the piece and am amazed how different it is from more modern 7C pieces.


I have a 7C from the late 70's that is one of my favorites. It feels and plays much like my late 60's 3C. I also own a "big letter" era (early 2000's) 3C that plays better (at least to me) than the post-Mt. Vernon 60's model 3C.

Bach seems to have enlarged the cup and narrowed the rim somewhat of the 7C's I have experienced from the late 70's and early 80's. I have not played any of the 7C's from the last 20 years or so, and do not know if this trend has continued into the CNC era.

The 7C has gotten a lot of bad press in the last couple of decades, but it is still one of the best all-around pieces out there, as it has always been. Now, if I were still teaching beginner classes, I would probably start the trumpets on a 5c size, for several reasons. But, that being said, evenness of sound spread, a decent rim, and deeper cup than the venerable 3C, make the Bach 7C a winner! Of course and as always, YMMV.

Best Regards, Dave
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so what
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Mt. Vernon Mouthpiece Re-Plate Reply with quote

You know, there are not enough mouthpieces out there.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boog wrote:

I have a 7C from the late 70's that is one of my favorites. It feels and plays much like my late 60's 3C. I also own a "big letter" era (early 2000's) 3C that plays better (at least to me) than the post-Mt. Vernon 60's model 3C.


I've played a few post-Mt. Vernon 60s 3Cs (no-dot Corp models). No two were alike. One was shallow and felt like a 10-1/2C, with a fairly broad rim. Another was as shallow but a bit wider. The one I currently have is as wide as my buddy's Corp (no dot) 1C and has the same or a very similar rim.

For this reason, I don't refer to "the Bach ___" when talking about mouthpieces.
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boog
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:


I've played a few post-Mt. Vernon 60s 3Cs (no-dot Corp models). No two were alike. One was shallow and felt like a 10-1/2C, with a fairly broad rim. Another was as shallow but a bit wider. The one I currently have is as wide as my buddy's Corp (no dot) 1C and has the same or a very similar rim.

For this reason, I don't refer to "the Bach ___" when talking about mouthpieces.


Isn't it amazing that even now, with computer controlled lathes and so forth, nobody seems to be able to <<<exactly>>> duplicate a metal object? Now, I expect this with my hand-made antique Purviance pieces, but stuff made on automated machines?

"Fascinating"...............Mr. Spock
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A guy I can recommend as a wizard with the restoration of your rare and special mouthpiece is Charlie Melk. I've brought him some pretty abused pieces and have been astonished by how amazing they have looked and felt when they've come back. When asked how he fixed a dent in the rim and he starts talked about raising the brass, you know some wizardry has happened.

I suspect the Melk family has forgotten more about instrument repair than many techs have ever learned.

Tom
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VetPsychWars wrote:
A guy I can recommend as a wizard with the restoration of your rare and special mouthpiece is Charlie Melk. I've brought him some pretty abused pieces and have been astonished by how amazing they have looked and felt when they've come back. When asked how he fixed a dent in the rim and he starts talked about raising the brass, you know some wizardry has happened.

I suspect the Melk family has forgotten more about instrument repair than many techs have ever learned.

Tom


Bob Frost in Indianapolis has fixed more than a couple mouthpiece I thought were done for, and I watched his techniques and still couldn't do what he did to make those mouthpieces smooth, whole, and very useable. It's amazing what a great repairman can do to restore issues we as mere mortals think are beyond repair.

AL
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dbacon
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: Mt. Vernon Mouthpiece Re-Plate Reply with quote

dr_trumpet wrote:
dbacon wrote:
dr_trumpet wrote:
trompette24 wrote:
I recently had a Mt. Vernon 1 1/2C re-plated. I understand the prestige of keeping of vintage mouthpiece/ instrument in original condition, but does it "lower the value" if the mouthpiece, which is in great physical condition, gets re-plated. About half the original plating was missing, mainly around the rim making it almost unplayable, at least safely.

I know this is likely subjective, but I'm curious as to people's thoughts on this matter.

Thank you.


I have a New York 1 that was literally completely raw brass, so I had to do something. Anderson's did a great job on the gold plating. I figure it's mine, I love it, and I want it to look as good as it plays. If this affects someone else's interest, it matters not as it isn't leaving my hands.


Did the rim remain the same when you had your N.Y. 1 replated?

Thanks!


Yes. I talked with Anderson's when they got the mouthpiece, and they assured me they would buff the rim as little as possible to plate it. The rim came back feeling none the different, and it looks great.


Excellent, thank you Albert!
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