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trumpetchops
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:21 am    Post subject: Synthetic Oil Reply with quote

I have been using Synthetic Oil for about 10 years or so. A while ago A friend of mine gave me a half full bottle and said, "I'm going back to Blue Juice" He told me that he keeps getting white sludge stuff in the trumpet. It stopped when he want back to the Blue Juice.

I get that too so, I try to keep the trumpet clean. My trumpet was washed not too long ago and today I noticed a build-up of the white stuff in the main slide.

My first thought was that it's proof that the white stuff isn't coming from the oil. Then I started thinking, My trumpet has been stored in the Torpedo case, making it bell up. Oil from the third valve may have drained down and got hung up on the slide, building up into the white stuff. Maybe a mix of oil and slide grease?

Any thoughts on how to stop the white stuff or what causes it?
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Joe Spitzer
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:16 am    Post subject: synthetic oil Reply with quote

Hello trumpetchops,
I started getting a greenish buildup at one time. Found that it was the lanoline based grease that had gone rancid. Once i changed to new grease I had no colored buildup. I use Ultra Pure synthetic.
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Croquethed
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe first step is to get rid of the sludge then store the Torpedo case flat for a couple weeks and see if it comes back.
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trumpetchops
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Croquethed wrote:
Maybe first step is to get rid of the sludge then store the Torpedo case flat for a couple weeks and see if it comes back.


I wash the trumpet often and play it every day.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ll bet it’s paraffin. I was using Five Star, which worked well, but I was getting this odd white “sludge” like you describe. Sort of waxy and rubbery stuff, I had never seen anything like it, I even posted a pic here on TH. I would see it in the leadpipe, as well as in the valve ports, pretty much all over. It was paraffin, the manufacturer confirmed it. He said it’s harmless, probably true, but it drove me NUTS; I also keep my horns very clean. Switched to Hetmans, problem gone.

I also use Torpedoes, but store the cases laying horizontally.

Brad
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trumpetchops
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
I bet it’s paraffin. I was using Five Star, which worked well, but I was getting this odd white “sludge” like you describe. Sort of waxy and rubbery stuff, I had never seen anything like it, I even posted a pic here on TH. I would see it in the leadpipe, as well as in the valve ports, pretty much all over. It was paraffin, the manufacturer confirmed it. He said it’s harmless, probably true, but it drove me NUTS; I also keep my horns very clean. Switched to Hetmans, problem gone.

Brad


Is Hetmans synthetic?

Was the paraffin in the oil or slide grease?
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetchops wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
I bet it’s paraffin. I was using Five Star, which worked well, but I was getting this odd white “sludge” like you describe. Sort of waxy and rubbery stuff, I had never seen anything like it, I even posted a pic here on TH. I would see it in the leadpipe, as well as in the valve ports, pretty much all over. It was paraffin, the manufacturer confirmed it. He said it’s harmless, probably true, but it drove me NUTS; I also keep my horns very clean. Switched to Hetmans, problem gone.

Brad


Is Hetmans synthetic?

Was the paraffin in the oil or slide grease?


If by synthetic you mean non-petroleum based, yes.

According to the guy at Five Star, the paraffin is in the oil. I now use Hetmans 2 oil and Space Filler slide oil (for first and third slides, Hetmans or Schilke slide grease on the tuning slide), no problems with “sludge” at all.

Brad
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BraeGrimes
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paraffin in oil is so weird! I guess it's to improve the seal. I only use synthetic oils, and my favourite is Hetman and I'll use Yamaha in a pinch. The other thing that white stuff could be is calcium transfer; usually calcium isn't a 'sludge' per se, but it can materialize that way with different agents in different oils/saliva. Having said that, if you're cleaning your horn regularly this wouldn't be a problem; in any case, I'd recommend a leadpipe and tuning slide swab. Also, and I am guilty of this, over-oiling is a bit of a problem... oil the valve liberally, shake off the residue (don't do this on hardwood, linoleum, or cement floors without a rag to wipe it up!) and then put the valve back in. Hope this helps
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ResilienceOils
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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It can also be silicone and low end solvents. Purity is highly important in oils as it has to have such a low centastroke level. If you are searching for a high end synthetic that has no silicone and the highest quality oil on the market try
Resilienceoils.com
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BraeGrimes wrote:
Paraffin in oil is so weird! I guess it's to improve the seal. I only use synthetic oils, and my favourite is Hetman and I'll use Yamaha in a pinch. The other thing that white stuff could be is calcium transfer; usually calcium isn't a 'sludge' per se, but it can materialize that way with different agents in different oils/saliva. Having said that, if you're cleaning your horn regularly this wouldn't be a problem; in any case, I'd recommend a leadpipe and tuning slide swab. Also, and I am guilty of this, over-oiling is a bit of a problem... oil the valve liberally, shake off the residue (don't do this on hardwood, linoleum, or cement floors without a rag to wipe it up!) and then put the valve back in. Hope this helps

I personally never take the valves out of the casing when oiling. Nor do I use any more oil than necessary. I don't like it dripping out the bottom of the valves.

If I may add another limit to the types of floor you should not shake excess oil onto I would add any.

I personally don't want valve oil stains on carpet, rugs, etc.
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boog
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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roche Thomas on the valves, Marvel Mystery on the slides. Cheap. Clean. No Problem. If you don't like the smell of MM oil, 3 in 1 is the same thing without the mint, but slightly more expensive. For old horns with VERY loose slides, Lucas Red 'N Tacky grease. Plus, you can grease the wheel bearings and spindles on your lawn equipment with it.

Or, you can pay $15 an ounce or two for "boutique" synthetics...with cute pictures on the bottle. Whatever cranks yer tractor!
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back before there were synthetic oils Benge recommended Roche Thomas and warned against using any oil containing silicone or anything else that would build up a residue on the valves.

Fast forward 50 years and I've used Hetman and Ultra Pure on my trumpets and flugelhorns. With Hetmans what came out the spit valves was ultimately bright yellow. I've posted on this problem before but apparently only a few players have experienced this. I don't know what causes it.

So I switched to Ultra Pure and the "bright yellow" problem went away. However, Ultra Pure built up a residue on the valves and left white sludge in the tubes. This was never a problem with the trumpets but it created a sticky valve problem on my flugelhorns. So, I thought back all those years ago and recently switched to Roche Thomas for my flugelhorns (after cleaning off the residue). So far, so good. Plus, Roche Thomas is cheap. When I run out of Ultra Pure I'll go back to Roche Thomas on my trumpets, too.
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Lawler Bb
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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm back to the best valve action in several years with my recent switch to Zaja. Ultra-Pure (not good for me at all), Hetman, Yamaha Synthetic, and Wick are all inferior. Yamaha Synthetic and Wick are pretty good, I'll take better valve action for less money, and my horn smells good too!
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ScottA
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The comment about Blue Juice surprises me. Our repair techs say they can always tell when a player is using BJ by the sludge in the bottom caps and the color of the pistons. They are not fans.

Yamaha's new oils have worked great for me and all those in I have recommended to them in the last few years. With 4 levels of viscosity most players can find one that will work well for them. Yes, it is more expensive to purchase but I have found I don't need to oil my valves nearly as often and the horns stay pretty clean.(I Also use Blow-Dry Brass two or three times a week which helps A LOT in keeping the horns clean.)
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superviking805
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll have to remind myself the "White Sludge" could be paraffin.
My understanding is this substance, I see primarily in the valve ports, is a thriving bacteria colony.
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IF you switch back and forth between traditional and synthetic valve oils without a thorough cleaning of the instrument, and I mean thorough, the white stuff shows up. It is the old regular valve oil precipitating the synthetic oil, causing it to sludge up. It happened to me at ITG 2001 when I went to BiNak from Pro Oil A7-141 Synthetic. Big mess, sticky valves, horrible, and my valves stuck throughout the performance. I was stupid. It was my fault, and I learned from the error.

When you switch to Ultra-Pure, the directions on the website are to give the instrument a thorough cleaning, and they emphasize that it may take two cleanings to get all of the residue of the prior valve oil out of the instrument. IF you simply buy a bottle and put it on the valves with no cleaning, you are asking for issues.

No one valve oil works for everybody, hence the many brands. The ones with the greatest following are not always the ones that are the best, but rather the ones that are able to work under the greatest number of misapplications.

AL
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velocraig
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of my horns are good with just about anything I feed them...even switching brands. But I had a Claude Gordon that didn't like anything but Al Cass...never could figure out why.
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trumpetchops
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dr_trumpet wrote:
IF you switch back and forth between traditional and synthetic valve oils without a thorough cleaning of the instrument, and I mean thorough, the white stuff shows up. It is the old regular valve oil precipitating the synthetic oil, causing it to sludge up. It happened to me at ITG 2001 when I went to BiNak from Pro Oil A7-141 Synthetic. Big mess, sticky valves, horrible, and my valves stuck throughout the performance. I was stupid. It was my fault, and I learned from the error.

When you switch to Ultra-Pure, the directions on the website are to give the instrument a thorough cleaning, and they emphasize that it may take two cleanings to get all of the residue of the prior valve oil out of the instrument. IF you simply buy a bottle and put it on the valves with no cleaning, you are asking for issues.

No one valve oil works for everybody, hence the many brands. The ones with the greatest following are not always the ones that are the best, but rather the ones that are able to work under the greatest number of misapplications.

AL

The trumpet was delivered to me from Monette with ultra pure. I have never used anything else. Still, white gook
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetchops wrote:
dr_trumpet wrote:
IF you switch back and forth between traditional and synthetic valve oils without a thorough cleaning of the instrument, and I mean thorough, the white stuff shows up. It is the old regular valve oil precipitating the synthetic oil, causing it to sludge up. It happened to me at ITG 2001 when I went to BiNak from Pro Oil A7-141 Synthetic. Big mess, sticky valves, horrible, and my valves stuck throughout the performance. I was stupid. It was my fault, and I learned from the error.

When you switch to Ultra-Pure, the directions on the website are to give the instrument a thorough cleaning, and they emphasize that it may take two cleanings to get all of the residue of the prior valve oil out of the instrument. IF you simply buy a bottle and put it on the valves with no cleaning, you are asking for issues.

No one valve oil works for everybody, hence the many brands. The ones with the greatest following are not always the ones that are the best, but rather the ones that are able to work under the greatest number of misapplications.

AL

The trumpet was delivered to me from Monette with ultra pure. I have never used anything else. Still, white gook


Interesting....
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Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
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Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
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trumpetchops
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dr_trumpet wrote:
trumpetchops wrote:
dr_trumpet wrote:
IF you switch back and forth between traditional and synthetic valve oils without a thorough cleaning of the instrument, and I mean thorough, the white stuff shows up. It is the old regular valve oil precipitating the synthetic oil, causing it to sludge up. It happened to me at ITG 2001 when I went to BiNak from Pro Oil A7-141 Synthetic. Big mess, sticky valves, horrible, and my valves stuck throughout the performance. I was stupid. It was my fault, and I learned from the error.

When you switch to Ultra-Pure, the directions on the website are to give the instrument a thorough cleaning, and they emphasize that it may take two cleanings to get all of the residue of the prior valve oil out of the instrument. IF you simply buy a bottle and put it on the valves with no cleaning, you are asking for issues.

No one valve oil works for everybody, hence the many brands. The ones with the greatest following are not always the ones that are the best, but rather the ones that are able to work under the greatest number of misapplications.

AL

The trumpet was delivered to me from Monette with ultra pure. I have never used anything else. Still, white gook


Interesting....


The Ultra Pure is almost gone. Maybe another 6 months left. When I'm out I'm going to get a small bottle of the old stuff and see what happens.
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