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trumpetchops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 2644
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:21 am Post subject: Synthetic Oil |
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I have been using Synthetic Oil for about 10 years or so. A while ago A friend of mine gave me a half full bottle and said, "I'm going back to Blue Juice" He told me that he keeps getting white sludge stuff in the trumpet. It stopped when he want back to the Blue Juice.
I get that too so, I try to keep the trumpet clean. My trumpet was washed not too long ago and today I noticed a build-up of the white stuff in the main slide.
My first thought was that it's proof that the white stuff isn't coming from the oil. Then I started thinking, My trumpet has been stored in the Torpedo case, making it bell up. Oil from the third valve may have drained down and got hung up on the slide, building up into the white stuff. Maybe a mix of oil and slide grease?
Any thoughts on how to stop the white stuff or what causes it? _________________ Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct. |
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Christian K. Peters Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 1529 Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:16 am Post subject: synthetic oil |
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Hello trumpetchops,
I started getting a greenish buildup at one time. Found that it was the lanoline based grease that had gone rancid. Once i changed to new grease I had no colored buildup. I use Ultra Pure synthetic. _________________ Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976 |
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Croquethed Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2013 Posts: 609 Location: Oakville, CT
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:17 am Post subject: |
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Maybe first step is to get rid of the sludge then store the Torpedo case flat for a couple weeks and see if it comes back. |
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trumpetchops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 2644
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Croquethed wrote: | Maybe first step is to get rid of the sludge then store the Torpedo case flat for a couple weeks and see if it comes back. |
I wash the trumpet often and play it every day. _________________ Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct. |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:09 am Post subject: |
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I’ll bet it’s paraffin. I was using Five Star, which worked well, but I was getting this odd white “sludge” like you describe. Sort of waxy and rubbery stuff, I had never seen anything like it, I even posted a pic here on TH. I would see it in the leadpipe, as well as in the valve ports, pretty much all over. It was paraffin, the manufacturer confirmed it. He said it’s harmless, probably true, but it drove me NUTS; I also keep my horns very clean. Switched to Hetmans, problem gone.
I also use Torpedoes, but store the cases laying horizontally.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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trumpetchops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 2644
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Brad361 wrote: | I bet it’s paraffin. I was using Five Star, which worked well, but I was getting this odd white “sludge” like you describe. Sort of waxy and rubbery stuff, I had never seen anything like it, I even posted a pic here on TH. I would see it in the leadpipe, as well as in the valve ports, pretty much all over. It was paraffin, the manufacturer confirmed it. He said it’s harmless, probably true, but it drove me NUTS; I also keep my horns very clean. Switched to Hetmans, problem gone.
Brad |
Is Hetmans synthetic?
Was the paraffin in the oil or slide grease? _________________ Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct. |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:04 am Post subject: |
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trumpetchops wrote: | Brad361 wrote: | I bet it’s paraffin. I was using Five Star, which worked well, but I was getting this odd white “sludge” like you describe. Sort of waxy and rubbery stuff, I had never seen anything like it, I even posted a pic here on TH. I would see it in the leadpipe, as well as in the valve ports, pretty much all over. It was paraffin, the manufacturer confirmed it. He said it’s harmless, probably true, but it drove me NUTS; I also keep my horns very clean. Switched to Hetmans, problem gone.
Brad |
Is Hetmans synthetic?
Was the paraffin in the oil or slide grease? |
If by synthetic you mean non-petroleum based, yes.
According to the guy at Five Star, the paraffin is in the oil. I now use Hetmans 2 oil and Space Filler slide oil (for first and third slides, Hetmans or Schilke slide grease on the tuning slide), no problems with “sludge” at all.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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BraeGrimes Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Apr 2011 Posts: 269 Location: Australia
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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Paraffin in oil is so weird! I guess it's to improve the seal. I only use synthetic oils, and my favourite is Hetman and I'll use Yamaha in a pinch. The other thing that white stuff could be is calcium transfer; usually calcium isn't a 'sludge' per se, but it can materialize that way with different agents in different oils/saliva. Having said that, if you're cleaning your horn regularly this wouldn't be a problem; in any case, I'd recommend a leadpipe and tuning slide swab. Also, and I am guilty of this, over-oiling is a bit of a problem... oil the valve liberally, shake off the residue (don't do this on hardwood, linoleum, or cement floors without a rag to wipe it up!) and then put the valve back in. Hope this helps |
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ResilienceOils Regular Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2018 Posts: 11 Location: Kansas
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Posted: Sat May 05, 2018 11:09 am Post subject: |
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It can also be silicone and low end solvents. Purity is highly important in oils as it has to have such a low centastroke level. If you are searching for a high end synthetic that has no silicone and the highest quality oil on the market try
Resilienceoils.com |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat May 05, 2018 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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BraeGrimes wrote: | Paraffin in oil is so weird! I guess it's to improve the seal. I only use synthetic oils, and my favourite is Hetman and I'll use Yamaha in a pinch. The other thing that white stuff could be is calcium transfer; usually calcium isn't a 'sludge' per se, but it can materialize that way with different agents in different oils/saliva. Having said that, if you're cleaning your horn regularly this wouldn't be a problem; in any case, I'd recommend a leadpipe and tuning slide swab. Also, and I am guilty of this, over-oiling is a bit of a problem... oil the valve liberally, shake off the residue (don't do this on hardwood, linoleum, or cement floors without a rag to wipe it up!) and then put the valve back in. Hope this helps |
I personally never take the valves out of the casing when oiling. Nor do I use any more oil than necessary. I don't like it dripping out the bottom of the valves.
If I may add another limit to the types of floor you should not shake excess oil onto I would add any.
I personally don't want valve oil stains on carpet, rugs, etc. |
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boog Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Jun 2014 Posts: 247
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Posted: Sat May 05, 2018 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Roche Thomas on the valves, Marvel Mystery on the slides. Cheap. Clean. No Problem. If you don't like the smell of MM oil, 3 in 1 is the same thing without the mint, but slightly more expensive. For old horns with VERY loose slides, Lucas Red 'N Tacky grease. Plus, you can grease the wheel bearings and spindles on your lawn equipment with it.
Or, you can pay $15 an ounce or two for "boutique" synthetics...with cute pictures on the bottle. Whatever cranks yer tractor! |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Sat May 05, 2018 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Back before there were synthetic oils Benge recommended Roche Thomas and warned against using any oil containing silicone or anything else that would build up a residue on the valves.
Fast forward 50 years and I've used Hetman and Ultra Pure on my trumpets and flugelhorns. With Hetmans what came out the spit valves was ultimately bright yellow. I've posted on this problem before but apparently only a few players have experienced this. I don't know what causes it.
So I switched to Ultra Pure and the "bright yellow" problem went away. However, Ultra Pure built up a residue on the valves and left white sludge in the tubes. This was never a problem with the trumpets but it created a sticky valve problem on my flugelhorns. So, I thought back all those years ago and recently switched to Roche Thomas for my flugelhorns (after cleaning off the residue). So far, so good. Plus, Roche Thomas is cheap. When I run out of Ultra Pure I'll go back to Roche Thomas on my trumpets, too. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Lawler Bb Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2002 Posts: 1139 Location: Milwaukee, WI
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Posted: Sat May 05, 2018 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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I'm back to the best valve action in several years with my recent switch to Zaja. Ultra-Pure (not good for me at all), Hetman, Yamaha Synthetic, and Wick are all inferior. Yamaha Synthetic and Wick are pretty good, I'll take better valve action for less money, and my horn smells good too! _________________ Eric Sperry
www.ericsperry.com
www.facebook.com/EricSperryTrumpet/
www.instagram.com/milwaukeetrumpet/ |
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ScottA Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 Posts: 617 Location: Florida
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:32 am Post subject: |
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The comment about Blue Juice surprises me. Our repair techs say they can always tell when a player is using BJ by the sludge in the bottom caps and the color of the pistons. They are not fans.
Yamaha's new oils have worked great for me and all those in I have recommended to them in the last few years. With 4 levels of viscosity most players can find one that will work well for them. Yes, it is more expensive to purchase but I have found I don't need to oil my valves nearly as often and the horns stay pretty clean.(I Also use Blow-Dry Brass two or three times a week which helps A LOT in keeping the horns clean.) _________________ Scott Apelgren
Indialantic, FL |
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superviking805 Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2009 Posts: 154 Location: Santa Barbara
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:07 am Post subject: |
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I'll have to remind myself the "White Sludge" could be paraffin.
My understanding is this substance, I see primarily in the valve ports, is a thriving bacteria colony. |
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dr_trumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2533 Location: Cope, IN
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 8:29 am Post subject: |
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IF you switch back and forth between traditional and synthetic valve oils without a thorough cleaning of the instrument, and I mean thorough, the white stuff shows up. It is the old regular valve oil precipitating the synthetic oil, causing it to sludge up. It happened to me at ITG 2001 when I went to BiNak from Pro Oil A7-141 Synthetic. Big mess, sticky valves, horrible, and my valves stuck throughout the performance. I was stupid. It was my fault, and I learned from the error.
When you switch to Ultra-Pure, the directions on the website are to give the instrument a thorough cleaning, and they emphasize that it may take two cleanings to get all of the residue of the prior valve oil out of the instrument. IF you simply buy a bottle and put it on the valves with no cleaning, you are asking for issues.
No one valve oil works for everybody, hence the many brands. The ones with the greatest following are not always the ones that are the best, but rather the ones that are able to work under the greatest number of misapplications.
AL _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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velocraig New Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2018 Posts: 5 Location: Georgia
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Most of my horns are good with just about anything I feed them...even switching brands. But I had a Claude Gordon that didn't like anything but Al Cass...never could figure out why. |
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trumpetchops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 2644
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:42 am Post subject: |
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dr_trumpet wrote: | IF you switch back and forth between traditional and synthetic valve oils without a thorough cleaning of the instrument, and I mean thorough, the white stuff shows up. It is the old regular valve oil precipitating the synthetic oil, causing it to sludge up. It happened to me at ITG 2001 when I went to BiNak from Pro Oil A7-141 Synthetic. Big mess, sticky valves, horrible, and my valves stuck throughout the performance. I was stupid. It was my fault, and I learned from the error.
When you switch to Ultra-Pure, the directions on the website are to give the instrument a thorough cleaning, and they emphasize that it may take two cleanings to get all of the residue of the prior valve oil out of the instrument. IF you simply buy a bottle and put it on the valves with no cleaning, you are asking for issues.
No one valve oil works for everybody, hence the many brands. The ones with the greatest following are not always the ones that are the best, but rather the ones that are able to work under the greatest number of misapplications.
AL |
The trumpet was delivered to me from Monette with ultra pure. I have never used anything else. Still, white gook _________________ Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct. |
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dr_trumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2533 Location: Cope, IN
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:42 am Post subject: |
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trumpetchops wrote: | dr_trumpet wrote: | IF you switch back and forth between traditional and synthetic valve oils without a thorough cleaning of the instrument, and I mean thorough, the white stuff shows up. It is the old regular valve oil precipitating the synthetic oil, causing it to sludge up. It happened to me at ITG 2001 when I went to BiNak from Pro Oil A7-141 Synthetic. Big mess, sticky valves, horrible, and my valves stuck throughout the performance. I was stupid. It was my fault, and I learned from the error.
When you switch to Ultra-Pure, the directions on the website are to give the instrument a thorough cleaning, and they emphasize that it may take two cleanings to get all of the residue of the prior valve oil out of the instrument. IF you simply buy a bottle and put it on the valves with no cleaning, you are asking for issues.
No one valve oil works for everybody, hence the many brands. The ones with the greatest following are not always the ones that are the best, but rather the ones that are able to work under the greatest number of misapplications.
AL |
The trumpet was delivered to me from Monette with ultra pure. I have never used anything else. Still, white gook |
Interesting.... _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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trumpetchops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 2644
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:50 am Post subject: |
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dr_trumpet wrote: | trumpetchops wrote: | dr_trumpet wrote: | IF you switch back and forth between traditional and synthetic valve oils without a thorough cleaning of the instrument, and I mean thorough, the white stuff shows up. It is the old regular valve oil precipitating the synthetic oil, causing it to sludge up. It happened to me at ITG 2001 when I went to BiNak from Pro Oil A7-141 Synthetic. Big mess, sticky valves, horrible, and my valves stuck throughout the performance. I was stupid. It was my fault, and I learned from the error.
When you switch to Ultra-Pure, the directions on the website are to give the instrument a thorough cleaning, and they emphasize that it may take two cleanings to get all of the residue of the prior valve oil out of the instrument. IF you simply buy a bottle and put it on the valves with no cleaning, you are asking for issues.
No one valve oil works for everybody, hence the many brands. The ones with the greatest following are not always the ones that are the best, but rather the ones that are able to work under the greatest number of misapplications.
AL |
The trumpet was delivered to me from Monette with ultra pure. I have never used anything else. Still, white gook |
Interesting.... |
The Ultra Pure is almost gone. Maybe another 6 months left. When I'm out I'm going to get a small bottle of the old stuff and see what happens. _________________ Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct. |
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