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so how do you USE the fourth valve?


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khedger
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:29 am    Post subject: so how do you USE the fourth valve? Reply with quote

I've been intrigued by four valved horns ever since I saw Freddie Hubbard and Don Ellis using them as a kid. I just realized that after all of these years, I don't really know what the fourth valve is FOR! How is it used? Why does anyone want or need a four valved horn? Please enlighten me....

Thanks,

keith
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They typically drop the pitch by a fourth. Giving a greater range. They also can allow for easier fingerings by changing the partials you are playing. I suspect this is best when the left hand is used to depress the fourth, freeing up the right to work normally.

Some horns use them to lower a quarter pitch. This allows for a whole new note palette.

On my picc I have a trill crook which lowers the pitch a half step. This allows for easier trills for things like 23 to 13 fingerings.
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CJceltics33
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m not exactly sure what it does, but I know Adam Rapa uses it for an extended lower register. He’s big on this subject
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markp
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
They typically drop the pitch by a fourth. Giving a greater range. They also can allow for easier fingerings by changing the partials you are playing. I suspect this is best when the left hand is used to depress the fourth, freeing up the right to work normally.


Is this how four-valve flugelhorns. like the Getzen, work as well?
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delano
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just push it down.
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mm55
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

4th valve is typically approximately equivalent to 1st & 3rd (lowers the pitch by a perfect fourth), but it can be very slightly different, which can be used to reduce or eliminate the use of kicker slides.

It can also be used to play lower notes than the 3 valves will support. It's used that way on piccolo, flugelhorn, and low brasses.

Don Ellis's fourth valve lowered the pitch by a quarter-tone. Roger Voisin's fourth valve raised the pitch by a whole-step.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm55 wrote:
Don Ellis's fourth valve lowered the pitch by a quarter-tone. Roger Voisin's fourth valve raised the pitch by a whole-step.

This had me scratching my head since I have always thought of the valves as adding length.

But then I realized that in this case the airstream goes through the tube when the valve is up and when the valve is down it bypasses the tube.
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.robbstewart.com/thibouville-and-schilke-cd-trumpets/
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roynj
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As others have indicated, the 4th valve usually lowers the pitch by a 4th. This is most handy when playing a pic as often there are often notes that are below the standard three valve harmonic series. Technique of using the 4th valve varies among players. With piston instruments, it is quite common to depress the 4th valve with the index finger of the left hand, while the first three fingers of the right hand are used for valves 1, 2 and 3. Rotary horns (such as many piccolo designs) have the 4th valve finger pad situated for either the right hand pinky finger, or the left hand index finger. I happen to prefer using the left hand index finger with the 4th valve as it makes fingering 1, 2 and 3 with the right hand much easier.
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

roynj wrote:
As others have indicated, the 4th valve usually lowers the pitch by a 4th. This is most handy when playing a pic as often there are often notes that are below the standard three valve harmonic series. Technique of using the 4th valve varies among players. With piston instruments, it is quite common to depress the 4th valve with the index finger of the left hand, while the first three fingers of the right hand are used for valves 1, 2 and 3. Rotary horns (such as many piccolo designs) have the 4th valve finger pad situated for either the right hand pinky finger, or the left hand index finger. I happen to prefer using the left hand index finger with the 4th valve as it makes fingering 1, 2 and 3 with the right hand much easier.


Have you ever tried using RH index and middle fingers for valves 1,2 and LH index and middle fingers for valves 3,4?
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On flugelhorns and piccolo's, the 4th is typically a P4 down.

On trumpets, it is often a quarter tone valve.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the idea of 4-valved trumpets has you scratching your head, check out David Hickman's collaboration with Dennis Blackburn...

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1358233

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1358715&sid=e008bf01341f16d050ff5580fa201291

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1358742

And other projects...

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1472463

All of the 4-valved horns I've had have been the typical P4 down for 4th valve: Getzen 89S flugel, Adams F4 flugel, Scherzer A/B-flat picc, F. Schmidt picc. I am accustomed to using my RH pinky to operate the 4th valve, but it makes sense to consider other options.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also recalled Dr Hickman’s instrument. He is an awesomely talented player. But being able to wrap one’s mind around all the different ways of playing the same passage requires an unusual mind, in my opinion.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
I also recalled Dr Hickman’s instrument. He is an awesomely talented player. But being able to wrap one’s mind around all the different ways of playing the same passage requires an unusual mind, in my opinion.


I hear what you're saying, LittleRusty, but for those of us who have had orchestral training with lots of transposition study, the only thing that should hold us back from getting one of these horns might be the price! I liken this to those that have a jazz background compared to those who have studied only traditional classical solo and orchestral material. The jazz guy would breeze through a 12-bar blues solo, and even a commercial lead player might feel okay faking that much in, say, a high school musical production during the exit music, but a classical/orchestral player would be looking at something like that as a cow looks at a new gate...not sure what to make of it!

I think any trumpet player that studied with an orchestral teacher should easily adapt to playing this instrument. For me it's simple following all of the videos where Mr. Hickman demos the horn. It would require what appears to be only a short adjustment period to the mechanics of the valves, and from that point, it would just be a matter of being creative with the selection of key shifts for various passages. I think it's an incredible invention, and especially from the standpoint of working out the intonation kinks that would haunt any skilled artisan with a beast creation like this. I understand that previous approaches to constructing this type of horn was riddled with pitch issues, but Mr. Hickman's demos show no signs of intonation discrepancies. To be clear, I think it's priced very fairly, but I gotta sell some horns to get there!
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Voltrane
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstpt wrote:

All of the 4-valved horns I've had have been the typical P4 down for 4th valve: Getzen 89S flugel, Adams F4 flugel, Scherzer A/B-flat picc, F. Schmidt picc.


For information, with the Selmer G/F Pic, the 4th valve lowers a whole tone.
Played with the 4th valves ok it is a G Pic, with the 4th valves constantly depressed, it is a F Pic.
Regards
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voltrane wrote:
dstpt wrote:

All of the 4-valved horns I've had have been the typical P4 down for 4th valve: Getzen 89S flugel, Adams F4 flugel, Scherzer A/B-flat picc, F. Schmidt picc.


For information, with the Selmer G/F Pic, the 4th valve lowers a whole tone.
Played with the 4th valves ok it is a G Pic, with the 4th valves constantly depressed, it is a F Pic.
Regards


Yes, and there are others that have similar options, like the "half-tone bow" that Schilke offers for their A/B-flat piccolos...

https://www.schilkemusic.com/products/trumpets/piccolo-trumpets/

The "half-tone bow" is the amount of tubing that is added by the slide and not the amount that the horn is altered. It is actually altered a "whole step" lower, from A to G (when the 4th valve is depressed). The remaining half-step is in the connecting tubes from the 4th valve casing. These kinds of options allow alternate fingerings for purposes of tuning and dexterity, pending the hurdles presented in a given piece/passage.
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Voltrane
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting!
Thanks.
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GuidoCorona
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

... And then there is one more 4th valve variant...

Stomvi offers an optional slide for its 4-valve flugel, which lowers pitch by a tritone... Originally designed for the repertoire played by Pacho Flores.

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dershem
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to have a 4-valve Getzen flugel, and found that it was very useful to tune the 4th valve to an in tune 4th - where the 1+3 D would be sharp, just the 4 would be in tune, and 2+4 would be pretty close. made it much easier to play in tune, and gave a few more options.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstpt wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
I also recalled Dr Hickman’s instrument. He is an awesomely talented player. But being able to wrap one’s mind around all the different ways of playing the same passage requires an unusual mind, in my opinion.


I hear what you're saying, LittleRusty, but for those of us who have had orchestral training with lots of transposition study, the only thing that should hold us back from getting one of these horns might be the price! I liken this to those that have a jazz background compared to those who have studied only traditional classical solo and orchestral material. The jazz guy would breeze through a 12-bar blues solo, and even a commercial lead player might feel okay faking that much in, say, a high school musical production during the exit music, but a classical/orchestral player would be looking at something like that as a cow looks at a new gate...not sure what to make of it!

I think any trumpet player that studied with an orchestral teacher should easily adapt to playing this instrument. For me it's simple following all of the videos where Mr. Hickman demos the horn. It would require what appears to be only a short adjustment period to the mechanics of the valves, and from that point, it would just be a matter of being creative with the selection of key shifts for various passages. I think it's an incredible invention, and especially from the standpoint of working out the intonation kinks that would haunt any skilled artisan with a beast creation like this. I understand that previous approaches to constructing this type of horn was riddled with pitch issues, but Mr. Hickman's demos show no signs of intonation discrepancies. To be clear, I think it's priced very fairly, but I gotta sell some horns to get there!

I do understand how transposing works. I can even do it myself.

However, one could use alternate key/fingering to facilitate tuning or ease of fingering by mixing fingerings associated with different keys in the same passage.

That is what I was referring to.
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