View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
khedger Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 754 Location: Cambridge, MA
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:29 am Post subject: so how do you USE the fourth valve? |
|
|
I've been intrigued by four valved horns ever since I saw Freddie Hubbard and Don Ellis using them as a kid. I just realized that after all of these years, I don't really know what the fourth valve is FOR! How is it used? Why does anyone want or need a four valved horn? Please enlighten me....
Thanks,
keith |
|
Back to top |
|
|
LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
They typically drop the pitch by a fourth. Giving a greater range. They also can allow for easier fingerings by changing the partials you are playing. I suspect this is best when the left hand is used to depress the fourth, freeing up the right to work normally.
Some horns use them to lower a quarter pitch. This allows for a whole new note palette.
On my picc I have a trill crook which lowers the pitch a half step. This allows for easier trills for things like 23 to 13 fingerings. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
CJceltics33 Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 475
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
I’m not exactly sure what it does, but I know Adam Rapa uses it for an extended lower register. He’s big on this subject |
|
Back to top |
|
|
markp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 2814 Location: Coarsegold, CA
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
LittleRusty wrote: | They typically drop the pitch by a fourth. Giving a greater range. They also can allow for easier fingerings by changing the partials you are playing. I suspect this is best when the left hand is used to depress the fourth, freeing up the right to work normally. |
Is this how four-valve flugelhorns. like the Getzen, work as well? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
Just push it down. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mm55 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1410
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
4th valve is typically approximately equivalent to 1st & 3rd (lowers the pitch by a perfect fourth), but it can be very slightly different, which can be used to reduce or eliminate the use of kicker slides.
It can also be used to play lower notes than the 3 valves will support. It's used that way on piccolo, flugelhorn, and low brasses.
Don Ellis's fourth valve lowered the pitch by a quarter-tone. Roger Voisin's fourth valve raised the pitch by a whole-step. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
mm55 wrote: | Don Ellis's fourth valve lowered the pitch by a quarter-tone. Roger Voisin's fourth valve raised the pitch by a whole-step. |
This had me scratching my head since I have always thought of the valves as adding length.
But then I realized that in this case the airstream goes through the tube when the valve is up and when the valve is down it bypasses the tube. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
JoseLindE4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
roynj Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Oct 2002 Posts: 2065
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
As others have indicated, the 4th valve usually lowers the pitch by a 4th. This is most handy when playing a pic as often there are often notes that are below the standard three valve harmonic series. Technique of using the 4th valve varies among players. With piston instruments, it is quite common to depress the 4th valve with the index finger of the left hand, while the first three fingers of the right hand are used for valves 1, 2 and 3. Rotary horns (such as many piccolo designs) have the 4th valve finger pad situated for either the right hand pinky finger, or the left hand index finger. I happen to prefer using the left hand index finger with the 4th valve as it makes fingering 1, 2 and 3 with the right hand much easier. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6158
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
roynj wrote: | As others have indicated, the 4th valve usually lowers the pitch by a 4th. This is most handy when playing a pic as often there are often notes that are below the standard three valve harmonic series. Technique of using the 4th valve varies among players. With piston instruments, it is quite common to depress the 4th valve with the index finger of the left hand, while the first three fingers of the right hand are used for valves 1, 2 and 3. Rotary horns (such as many piccolo designs) have the 4th valve finger pad situated for either the right hand pinky finger, or the left hand index finger. I happen to prefer using the left hand index finger with the 4th valve as it makes fingering 1, 2 and 3 with the right hand much easier. |
Have you ever tried using RH index and middle fingers for valves 1,2 and LH index and middle fingers for valves 3,4? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Divitt Trumpets Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2015 Posts: 519 Location: Toronto
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
On flugelhorns and piccolo's, the 4th is typically a P4 down.
On trumpets, it is often a quarter tone valve. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1272
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
|
Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I also recalled Dr Hickman’s instrument. He is an awesomely talented player. But being able to wrap one’s mind around all the different ways of playing the same passage requires an unusual mind, in my opinion. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1272
|
Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
LittleRusty wrote: | I also recalled Dr Hickman’s instrument. He is an awesomely talented player. But being able to wrap one’s mind around all the different ways of playing the same passage requires an unusual mind, in my opinion. |
I hear what you're saying, LittleRusty, but for those of us who have had orchestral training with lots of transposition study, the only thing that should hold us back from getting one of these horns might be the price! I liken this to those that have a jazz background compared to those who have studied only traditional classical solo and orchestral material. The jazz guy would breeze through a 12-bar blues solo, and even a commercial lead player might feel okay faking that much in, say, a high school musical production during the exit music, but a classical/orchestral player would be looking at something like that as a cow looks at a new gate...not sure what to make of it!
I think any trumpet player that studied with an orchestral teacher should easily adapt to playing this instrument. For me it's simple following all of the videos where Mr. Hickman demos the horn. It would require what appears to be only a short adjustment period to the mechanics of the valves, and from that point, it would just be a matter of being creative with the selection of key shifts for various passages. I think it's an incredible invention, and especially from the standpoint of working out the intonation kinks that would haunt any skilled artisan with a beast creation like this. I understand that previous approaches to constructing this type of horn was riddled with pitch issues, but Mr. Hickman's demos show no signs of intonation discrepancies. To be clear, I think it's priced very fairly, but I gotta sell some horns to get there! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Voltrane Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2006 Posts: 629 Location: Paris (France)
|
Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
dstpt wrote: |
All of the 4-valved horns I've had have been the typical P4 down for 4th valve: Getzen 89S flugel, Adams F4 flugel, Scherzer A/B-flat picc, F. Schmidt picc. |
For information, with the Selmer G/F Pic, the 4th valve lowers a whole tone.
Played with the 4th valves ok it is a G Pic, with the 4th valves constantly depressed, it is a F Pic.
Regards |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1272
|
Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
Voltrane wrote: | dstpt wrote: |
All of the 4-valved horns I've had have been the typical P4 down for 4th valve: Getzen 89S flugel, Adams F4 flugel, Scherzer A/B-flat picc, F. Schmidt picc. |
For information, with the Selmer G/F Pic, the 4th valve lowers a whole tone.
Played with the 4th valves ok it is a G Pic, with the 4th valves constantly depressed, it is a F Pic.
Regards |
Yes, and there are others that have similar options, like the "half-tone bow" that Schilke offers for their A/B-flat piccolos...
https://www.schilkemusic.com/products/trumpets/piccolo-trumpets/
The "half-tone bow" is the amount of tubing that is added by the slide and not the amount that the horn is altered. It is actually altered a "whole step" lower, from A to G (when the 4th valve is depressed). The remaining half-step is in the connecting tubes from the 4th valve casing. These kinds of options allow alternate fingerings for purposes of tuning and dexterity, pending the hurdles presented in a given piece/passage. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Voltrane Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2006 Posts: 629 Location: Paris (France)
|
Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
Very interesting!
Thanks. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
GuidoCorona Veteran Member
Joined: 29 May 2014 Posts: 377 Location: Summerville, SC
|
Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
... And then there is one more 4th valve variant...
Stomvi offers an optional slide for its 4-valve flugel, which lowers pitch by a tritone... Originally designed for the repertoire played by Pacho Flores.
G. _________________ Cornet: Carolbrass CCR7772R-GSS
Euphoniums: Miraphone M5050. Wessex Festivo |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dershem Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1884 Location: San Diego, CA
|
Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I used to have a 4-valve Getzen flugel, and found that it was very useful to tune the 4th valve to an in tune 4th - where the 1+3 D would be sharp, just the 4 would be in tune, and 2+4 would be pretty close. made it much easier to play in tune, and gave a few more options. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
|
Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
dstpt wrote: | LittleRusty wrote: | I also recalled Dr Hickman’s instrument. He is an awesomely talented player. But being able to wrap one’s mind around all the different ways of playing the same passage requires an unusual mind, in my opinion. |
I hear what you're saying, LittleRusty, but for those of us who have had orchestral training with lots of transposition study, the only thing that should hold us back from getting one of these horns might be the price! I liken this to those that have a jazz background compared to those who have studied only traditional classical solo and orchestral material. The jazz guy would breeze through a 12-bar blues solo, and even a commercial lead player might feel okay faking that much in, say, a high school musical production during the exit music, but a classical/orchestral player would be looking at something like that as a cow looks at a new gate...not sure what to make of it!
I think any trumpet player that studied with an orchestral teacher should easily adapt to playing this instrument. For me it's simple following all of the videos where Mr. Hickman demos the horn. It would require what appears to be only a short adjustment period to the mechanics of the valves, and from that point, it would just be a matter of being creative with the selection of key shifts for various passages. I think it's an incredible invention, and especially from the standpoint of working out the intonation kinks that would haunt any skilled artisan with a beast creation like this. I understand that previous approaches to constructing this type of horn was riddled with pitch issues, but Mr. Hickman's demos show no signs of intonation discrepancies. To be clear, I think it's priced very fairly, but I gotta sell some horns to get there! |
I do understand how transposing works. I can even do it myself.
However, one could use alternate key/fingering to facilitate tuning or ease of fingering by mixing fingerings associated with different keys in the same passage.
That is what I was referring to. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|