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youngtrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:55 pm    Post subject: Practical range? Reply with quote

What are the thoughts out there about picking an upper limit to your range? Heresy, I know but really, commercial and lead stuff requires a reliable G. Combo gigs can be whatever you want, I don't know of any "legit" rep going higher than E or F. Ditto brass quintet, traditional jazz, church solos, wedding tunes.

So, what's the point of beating our collective heads against the "double high C" wall? My ego wants to do a good job and make the audience and contractor happy. Unless I join a Maynard tribute band the F I have is plenty.

Thoughts?
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Practical range? Reply with quote

youngtrumpet wrote:
What are the thoughts out there about picking an upper limit to your range? Heresy, I know but really, commercial and lead stuff requires a reliable G. Combo gigs can be whatever you want, I don't know of any "legit" rep going higher than E or F. Ditto brass quintet, traditional jazz, church solos, wedding tunes.

So, what's the point of beating our collective heads against the "double high C" wall? My ego wants to do a good job and make the audience and contractor happy. Unless I join a Maynard tribute band the F I have is plenty.

Thoughts?


Another thought could be, if you're happy with your range the way it is? Why bother even posting this topic?

Plenty of trumpet players feel satisfied with even less range than what you describe as your capabilities are. This however is a "high range development" discussion forum. Our intended purpose is to share thoughts and ask questions with the specific purpose of improving our musical range.

So your topic post is kinda similar to putting a "why bother playing trumpet"? post on a trumpet forum. It doesn't make much sense.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somewhere along the line I was told that if you had a Concert D above the staff (high E on Bb, D on C, and F on A Picc,) you could play 95+% of the literature.

'Course that was back in the dark ages before everyone and their brother could play a double C.

Be solid and musical with what you have and I'm sure you will find a way to make it work.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For almost anything if you have a solid double G (4th ledger line above the staff) you have enough. If you can nail the A above the double G so much the better (sometimes, although rarely, something is written in a big band lead book requiring the A).

Please understand that it's one thing to be able to hit a note, it's quite another thing to own the note. If you don't own the note it's not really in your reliable range.

The above being said, what you really "need" depends on what it is you play or want to play. Unless you're playing the lead book in a big band you'll probably never encounter anything written above the F below double G. If you're an improvisational player you'll need the double G if you want to cover range like Freddie or Clifford.
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youngtrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:16 am    Post subject: Re: Practical range? Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:


Another thought could be, if you're happy with your range the way it is? Why bother even posting this topic?


Point taken, Lionel. My post sounds doucheier when I reread it than it did when I wrote it. Let me rephrase.

As those os us reading this thread continue to increase and improve the quality of our range who has an end game? Is there a top end you'll be satisfied with or is this a never-ending story? If you are or will be happy someday, how do you maintain or improve the usefulness of your everyday upper register?
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Usually a good upper register translates to having an efficient playing mechanism. Personally, my pursuit of playing this thing is about making it easier for myself. That includes working on developing range. I have no end goal, just to play music easier.

People obsess over range as it is easily measurable, quantifiable, and get a kick out of saying "I can play a double C" or whatever. Kinda jock-like mentality. What is much harder to quantify, and much less ought after (at least through the lens of social media), is creativity and musicality.

Imagine 2 players:

1) Can make their lips vibrate 1864.66 times a second, and is proud of this fact. Gets those YouTube hits, and superficial peer approval.

2) Can play musically appropriately in their chosen style, which may or may not require, but is not defined by being able to vibrate their lips 1864.66 times a second.

The end goal is music. When the mechanics work well, it makes the end goal easier. That should be the overriding factor in development on the instrument.

In the same manner that I find certain chord changes difficult to navigate. I have a couple manuscript books full of paths thru the changes, exercises to make them more familiar to me physically, and a pursuit to play these with good articulation and fluently from slow to fast. If you want to play Clifford's Cherokee solo, you ought to work on it softly, slowly and accurately with the end goal of being able to execute this faster than necessary such that the original tempo is not at the limit of your ability. The goal is musical execution, not the fact that you are playing Clifford's solo faster than the original. A means to an end.

Casting no aspersions on anyone posting atm, BTW. And I find high notes undeniably fun and exciting, but there is a time and a place.

Best,
Mike
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Picking" an upper limit? How many would actually say they don't want as much usable range that they can play musically as possible?

How much usable range you have is going to be a factor in opportunities available to you. If all you ever want to do is traditional jazz gigs you probably don't even have to have a high C.

If you're the guy who can play screaming dub C's and beyond at will you're going to get tapped for gigs where it's going to get used.
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RussellDDixon
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why set limits ? Just learn to play correctly and improve all the aspects of your playing. My next adventure is learning improvisation. Play, practice and have fun.
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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played well into the register above high G and lived above the staff for a 90 min show on Friday night. I happen to be one of those players that is required to do this on occasion. I have to visit this register relatively often in order to maintain confidence and control. That being said this is not all I practice. On the following Sunday I played a funeral service/celebration of life in church. This job had no requirement to play out of the staff. I played Bb and C with a very different sound and approach. This too I work on quite often.

In discussions about the extreme upper register it is often presented that to work on this register you must throw the baby out with the bath water. When we work on our extreme register it is not meant to be all consuming. The by product of working on this register when done with a logical, balanced and measured approach is greater control in the register below. This is not a bad thing.

To explore the extreme upper register is not a negative if you do it correctly.

Best, Jon
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my goal is to play up to the G. i don't need it, but it's a drill, and there is no reason not to get at least that far.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:58 am    Post subject: Re: Practical range? Reply with quote

youngtrumpet wrote:
Lionel wrote:


Another thought could be, if you're happy with your range the way it is? Why bother even posting this topic?


Point taken, Lionel. My post sounds doucheier when I reread it than it did when I wrote it. Let me rephrase.

As those os us reading this thread continue to increase and improve the quality of our range who has an end game? Is there a top end you'll be satisfied with or is this a never-ending story? If you are or will be happy someday, how do you maintain or improve the usefulness of your everyday upper register?


I disagree...with Lionel. This is a high range forum, I don’t think your post was “doucheier” (is that a word?😉) at all.

Brad
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boog
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of my teachers from back in antiquity once told me that you work on your range (both high and low limits) to make your "middle" (or best sounding) range wider. For instance, if you can play a pedal C on the bottom and a 4th ledger line G above the staff on top, you should have a nice sounding (and reliable) low F# below the staff to 2nd ledger line C above the staff range. Has always made sense to me.
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Bstradivarius
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got to where I could play a double high C. Now I can say I once could. That is all I need. I haven't attempted to get up that high in 20 years because I have not needed it. Plus it screws up other things.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:28 am    Post subject: Re: Practical range? Reply with quote

youngtrumpet wrote:
What are the thoughts out there about picking an upper limit to your range? Heresy, I know but really, commercial and lead stuff requires a reliable G. Combo gigs can be whatever you want, I don't know of any "legit" rep going higher than E or F. Ditto brass quintet, traditional jazz, church solos, wedding tunes.

So, what's the point of beating our collective heads against the "double high C" wall? My ego wants to do a good job and make the audience and contractor happy. Unless I join a Maynard tribute band the F I have is plenty.

Thoughts?


Range needed depends on type of music played and what chair you are in.

Klezmer music requires only modest range.
Big band music requires greater range.

1st chair big band requires perhaps High G.
4th chair big band might require only G on top of the staff.

Your range should represent what you want to be in the future,
not just what you are today.
So if you are 4th chair trumpet now, but you want to be 1st chair trumpet someday,
then you should work to have that High G range.

BTW, speaking of 4th chair,
we should regularly post the famous YouTube about playing 4th chair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJBggMTZI7w

I can just imagine the 4th chair player thinking, "For this I went to Berklee?"

Maynard Ferguson used to tell the story about when he and Doc Severinsen played in the same band in the late 1940's.

"People always ask if Doc or I played 1st or 2nd chair in that band.
Neither.
We were 4th and 5th !!!!!!!
ha-ha-ha..."

Mark
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

During my years playing studio work in Los Angeles I don't think I ever had to play above an E above High C (but I wasn't doing the soundtrack to The Incredibles, either!). But that said, there were some technically HARD and intricate stuff I had to play in the upper range, including a line from a Mr. Bean promo piece that entailed triple tonguing up a two octave arpeggio from low D to D above High C at the beginning of a passage. That one took more than one take.... The engineers literally slowed down the recording and looked at the visual graphic of my track to make sure each note was accurate to the millisecond going up the run. Crazy.

I have played several shows that have written double high notes. The Toronto version of Cats I played on in Hamburg had a G# in the ink, though we usually played the D# below it (the fifth of the chord). This was the last note on The Pekes and Pollicles if I remember correctly (it's been nearly twenty years now!). But the G's in the book were not considered optional. The Producers has a sixteenth note run up to Double High C, and Starlight Express has a couple Double A's and a Double B. Other than that, I don't remember any of the shows I played on in my career going above F#.

I think if you're playing shows as an amateur or in smaller towns, it is considered okay to take the really high stuff down an octave (and maybe it's best to do that anyway if you're playing in a small theater with a really small pit "orchestra"). But if your goal is the "big time", and you want to play the first book (or the second book on a show like West Side Story) you're going to need at least a good, reliable full-power F# above High C, and you'd be best off with a good solid G above High C. Players that have that kind of range can generally reach a Double High C in practice or close to it (but not at full volume or with consistency).

In summary, I practice up to Double High C in my range exercises (these days I don't always reach it because I don't practice the exercises consistently enough) because I have found that in order to always have a good G I need to be able to reach notes about 1/3 of an octave above it.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless you have your sights set on lead playing, I think most players would do alright to have a bulletproof D followed by some facility up to F. For lead players including musical theater and some other specialized endeavors, the sky is the limit but it seems to me a reliable high G would get the job done most of the time.
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's worth noting that owning a note and being able to play one are not the same thing.

If you can play a double G at the end of a 3 hour gig, you have it. If you can play it once on a good day when you're still fresh, then you don't.

Play high more often, as much as you can without wounding yourself. That's the only 'magic' I've ever encountered.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RandyTX wrote:
It's worth noting that owning a note and being able to play one are not the same thing.

If you can play a double G at the end of a 3 hour gig, you have it. If you can play it once on a good day when you're still fresh, then you don't.

Play high more often, as much as you can without wounding yourself. That's the only 'magic' I've ever encountered.


A Double G is above Double C.

http://www.trumpetmaster.com/threads/double-c-read-before-posting-anything-concerning-high-notes.45824/

Mark
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tenor Horn Fellow wrote:
RandyTX wrote:
It's worth noting that owning a note and being able to play one are not the same thing.

If you can play a double G at the end of a 3 hour gig, you have it. If you can play it once on a good day when you're still fresh, then you don't.

Play high more often, as much as you can without wounding yourself. That's the only 'magic' I've ever encountered.


A Double G is above Double C.

http://www.trumpetmaster.com/threads/double-c-read-before-posting-anything-concerning-high-notes.45824/

Mark


This doesn't really clarify the matter. Taking G as an example, what are the proper names of the different octaves, starting from below the staff?

If, per that link, octaves start at C, then Low G is on the second line.
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Tenor Horn Fellow
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:
Tenor Horn Fellow wrote:
RandyTX wrote:
It's worth noting that owning a note and being able to play one are not the same thing.

If you can play a double G at the end of a 3 hour gig, you have it. If you can play it once on a good day when you're still fresh, then you don't.

Play high more often, as much as you can without wounding yourself. That's the only 'magic' I've ever encountered.


A Double G is above Double C.

http://www.trumpetmaster.com/threads/double-c-read-before-posting-anything-concerning-high-notes.45824/

Mark


This doesn't really clarify the matter. Taking G as an example, what are the proper names of the different octaves, starting from below the staff?

If, per that link, octaves start at C, then Low G is on the second line.


The matter has been discussed here before many times.

50 years ago everyone called the G above High C a High G.

"Pops" has posted such here.

Bud Brisbois called it that.

The moderator at Trumpet Master says such.

The naming convention was universally-recognized until young people decided that they wanted to claim a "Double G".

But young people stubbornly reject the old universally-recognized naming convention,
so it is a losing battle.

Mark
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