Using a completely different set for lead?

VintageFTW

I figure I should ask before I do anything that I'll regret later. As per my normal playing demands, I play in a concert band setting and a big band setting on a daily basis. For concert band I have been using my New York Bach 17C1 and it has been doing splendidly, but for jazz band I have committed to trying to make a go of my Ratzenberger Jet Tone BC. It gets the sound I am looking for, has crisp articulation, and is very easy to play, but only if I set my chops in a VERY specific way. It is the most unforgiving piece I have ever tried to play, but when it works it really works. If I don't set my chops just right it shuts down on me. Too much upper lip intrusion? Bam. Poor, shaded tone and bad articulation. Too much lower lip? The very same. The only way I can get it to work is 50/50 placement and a very short lip length to set. I then relax my chops as best I can and it works, but my lips have to be perfectly flat against the rim. I think what I have begun to discover is similar to the MF Protocol, but I really don't know. Could there be any harm from doing this? I should add that when things work I feel like I can play forever... My chops feel fresh when rehearsal is over. I've rambled on long enough. Is what I'm doing ill-advised, or should I be fine?
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bnsd · Veteran Member Joined: 17 Jun 2014 Posts: 126

I use a different mouthpiece AND a different trumpet, sometimes within the same day. I don't have an issue with it, but;

It sounds like your lead piece is walking a fine line... You might find something that gives you everything you get from the JetTone and not be so unforgiving.

I've had to mess around with different lead pieces throughout the year, and I think I've finally found one that gives me what I want.

Lionel · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783

The concept of using piece for lead and another for classical is very common. I'd go with it as opposed to fighting it.

As per the delicate nature of your lead embouchure? I can see it becoming less unusual over time. When it comes to making adjustments to shallower mouthpieces I like to take my time.

We've often heard the mistaken belief that "shallow mouthpieces make it easy". Or that "shallow pieces are cheating". Nothing could be further from truth. The one thing which shallow mouthpieces have in common with the large one is that each requires a well educated embouchure. Hence the longer adjustment period. I like to take at least 30 days of breaking in a shallower piece. Before using on stage. Even then I will keep my existing lead mouthpiece handy in case the new, shallower one backs up on me.

Handy hint : When adjusting to a new shallower mouthpiece on a gig, shift over to it only when you start to fatigue. Your chops becoming like a "2 stage rocket". Then after feeling pleasantly refreshed with greatly added power and endurance? Gradually switch over to the shallower piece earlier and earluer in the evening. Until you actually start the gig with the new one.

The reverse is true as well. As when switching to a bigger mouthpiece? Use it at the beginning of the gig. Then switch back when slightly tired.
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JoshMizruchi · Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:05 pm Post subject:

Good answers so far. I totally agree that it's normal to use a different mouthpiece and quite possibly a different horn to play lead than in a concert band.

I also agree that your shallow mouthpiece sounds a bit unforgiving for you. I've been in that situation myself, many times actually, and I ultimately came to the conclusion that having a mouthpiece you're worried about bottoming out on all the time just isn't worth the headache.

Not to say your Jet Tone isn't a great mouthpiece; I often hear about how great the Ratzenberger Jet Tones are, though I never tried one myself. But really shallow mouthpieces, from what I've observed, only work for a relative minority of players. The guys who can make them work, great for them. But I've seen some of the best players out there throw up their hands and decide those super-shallow cups just aren't for them. That made me think, maybe it's not just me.

I eventually settled on a Warburton S-cup for that kind of playing. It's shallow, but not so shallow to worry about bottoming out. I found myself much happier that way.
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VintageFTW · Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:54 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the feedback. I do know that it is very common to use two different mouthpieces for lead and classical. I myself have been doing that for quite some time... but what I was wondering is whether or not this alternate chop set could be detrimental to my other playing. I did notice today that my margin of error is become much greater for the sweet spot on the Jet Tone, which I suppose is good. I also suppose that I may have over exaggerated my intolerance for an improper set a little. My playing doesn't go to complete trash, it is still to what others consider pretty good, but it isn't up to my standards and it doesn't feel quite right if I don't set correctly. I don't exactly bottom out on the Jet Tone... I know when that happens because no sound will come out if I do due to the extreme shallowness of the cup. (By the way, I have come to LOVE the Warburton S cup. I am saving up the cash to invest in a 10S or 10SV for all around playing, but man does that stuff get pricey).

Lionel: I don't subscribe to the "cheater" mouthpiece idea either. A very shallow piece is FAR more difficult to play well than a deep one.
As to what I mentioned prior; I think you are right about this becoming less unusual over time as evidence by my experience today. I think I am finally figuring out how to consistently set my chops for the Jet Tone without too much effort, thus meaning it is becoming easier and less troublesome. I also really like your strategy for switching over. I think I might try to implement it... the only problem is that I don't have another piece in even roughly the same diameter, so it'll be a little tricky.
_________________
1880's Thompson & Odell Boston
1880's L&H "Henry Gunckel" Sole Agent Cornet
1903 L&H "Improved Own Make"
Early 1900's Marceau Cornet *B&F Stencil
1922 Holton-Clarke Cornet
1954 Elkhart built by Buescher 37b
...And many more

JoshMizruchi · Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:55 pm Post subject:

gstump · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 934

It is usually less of an issue if the inside cup diameters are very close to the same size. Even better if the rims are the same.

Rather than make adjustments with the embouchure, use the same embouchure and let the mouthpiece adjust the sound.

You cannot go wrong with the WB system

Best of luck,

Gordon Stump
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Seymor B Fudd · Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:50 am Post subject:

deleted_user_680e93b · New Member Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0

razeontherock

Robert P · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2594

I don't think it should be as problematic as it sounds like it is for you. Why struggle to "make it work" if it sounds like such a PITA and there might be something better?

Have you ever tried a Yamaha Bobby Shew Lead? So far I haven't found anything that makes the higher notes easier. It's definitely not a symphonic piece but it's not radically shallow. I've seen others say they don't like the rim shape but I find it very comfortable. I don't have to go through any particular machinations that I don't do on a larger mp, it just facilitates range better.

I played a Jet-Tone T1A for years because when I first tried it the flat rim felt very comfortable. Over the years I've changed the mechanics of how I address the mp and my overall consciousness of what I do has changed. Eventually I wanted to see how I did on something else, tried a Schilke 14A4A which I liked better, then after a while stumbled across the Shew piece which I liked even more than the Schilke.

Now the same Jet-Tone that I played for a very long time I don't even function well on anymore. I also have a JT Studio B which at least from photos looks similar to the BC - I've never liked it.

I also have a Bach Commercial 3S which gives a huge sound and is very comfortable. It's supposed to be a lead piece although it's not as much help in the upper range as the Shew but gives a fatter sound.
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Brad361 · Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:22 am Post subject:

I won’t suggest any mouthpiece, because I believe there are too many individual factors that can make a mouthpiece great for one person, unplayable for another. But as Robert said above, it sounds to me like you’re putting more effort into making something work than it’s probably worth.

There are hundreds of “lead mouthpieces” out there, maybe consider trying something other than what you’re struggling with.

Brad
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VintageFTW