What's the reason for a short shank mp?

[Robert P]

The subject line pretty much says it. Why would you use a short shank mp?
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[TKSop]

Basically certain design parameters necessitate it...

If you take (for example) a standard Bach and team the throat out to lets say a #20, the throat is now much longer, which will compress the octaves - so you want to open them back up again (to get it back in balance), you could open the backbore up to a larger/faster taper, but only so far as your existing shank size will allow... Or you could shorten the backbore, which will shorten the overall length (you'll need to turn down the shank too to restore gap/insertion).

This is, very simply, a basic version of your Monette style designs - minus the experience and practice/refinement that's gone into getting those designs to play just as the manufacturer intends, of course.

[Dale Proctor]

On cornets, short-shank mouthpieces typically have very deep cups and extremely large throats. They will play flat because of this, so they're made shorter (with a compatible backbore) to allow them to play well and in tune with a normal pull on the tuning slide.
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[TKSop]

[Tpt_Guy]

Changes the intonation pattern of the horn, as previously posted.

I can give some specifics. Years ago I used to play a Curry 1BC short shank. I didn't care for it on my Bb, though I can't recall why.

On my C, it had some unexpected effects. The most startling was that 4th space E and Eb no longer needed 12 and 23, respectively. I didn't have to fight a flat high register. High C rang out easier, and attacks seemed more responsive and crisper.

Unfortunately, there were some downsides (for me). Other notes were pushed unusably sharp, such as top line F, F#, high G. High A was a nightmare and I needed to use the third valve. My horn has a Bb length reverse leadpipe, and I've heard that these intonation tendencies are somewhat common to such designs, but the mpc seemed to accentuate them. Slotting also became a bit squirrelier, but that was possibly a gap issue.

This was with Curry's #2 backbore (stock). Not sure what results other backbores would produce.
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[scottfsmith]

I thought the wide throat and short shank trumpet design was a Monette invention, but I recently acquired a 1930's Martin mouthpiece with exactly the same throat size (#17) and shank length as my Monette B6S1... what goes around comes around.

I have a 1920's Courtois mouthpiece with a more or less standard bowl and throat, but a short shank. The backbore is very narrow to compensate for the short shank.

Basically with the shorter shank you can explore these different design spaces that would not be possible on the longer shank if it were to be in-tune.
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Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces

[Robert P]

Is there any issue using a short shank mp with a standard receiver?
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King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C

Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo

Chinese Flugel

[TKSop]

[cbtj51]

How does all of this translate into the Reeves C2J pieces? Very short shank, very deep cup, very nice sound. Intonation issues that would ordinarily be characteristic of my Bach C 229/25A, at least for me, pretty much disappear. I have used this combination often while playing 2nd and 3rd parts in a Chamber Orchestra setting to very nice effect. Why does this seem to work so well?
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'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces

[lipshurt]

The basic deal with short shank trumpet (not cornet) piece is if you like a big throat, the piece works better if the the whole thing is shorter. The very big throat (20 or so) seems to work better a shorter smaller backbore, which is what you get if you cut the end off about 3/8 inch and then resize the outer diameter of the shank so that the insertion amount is the same (gap same as before).

This Arrangement makes the slots real deep, and feel farther apart. Harder to bend and a bit harder to do lips slurs. It also make the 5th harmonic higher, (D, Eb, E) and makes the high C and D less flat. But also makes the 6th harmonic (F,F#,G) sharper. That could be a deal breaker on some horns. It makes the horn feel accurate, and the ping on the note is secure. Some guys like it other players hate it right away. I also thought it’s harder to play soft.

OH, and it pretty much only works on C trumpet.

Every so often I try it again especially if I have a different setup of my C trumpet. Usnually give up on it after a couple of days. I never got to the point of trying several different amounts of shortness and throat variations.
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[Dale Proctor]

I think I'll try combining one of my short-shank cornet mouthpieces with a trumpet adapter and plugging it into my Bach C trumpet tomorrow. It will be interesting to see if I get the same effect on those notes as others have mentioned.
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[lipshurt]

It’s bit the shortness that defines it. It’s the long large cylindrical section that is the most important part. A short cornet piece with an adaptor will be nothing like it. Those have no cylindrical section or a very short one
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[iiipopes]

Everyone is overthinking this.

Historically, every manufacturer had their own proprietary receivers and mouthpieces, so the parameters became what they were. In the USA, this was most notable with the Conn short shank cornet mouthpiece.

In the late '50's and '60's, when all the manufacturers either started dropping out, were assimilated by the Cyborg, or otherwise, then Bach standard became, well, standard.

Then as everybody started wholesale modifying their instruments and became more aware of the finer points of tone and intonation and how different backbores and throat geometry, again as pioneered by Conn in their mouthpiece book released in the '50's, then all the above discussions became pertinent.
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[scottfsmith]

While there is indeed a long history of brand-specific receiver/mouthpiece designs, these intonation trade offs were known well before the 1950's Conn book.

I have a Courtois cornet circa 1890 and two Courtois period cornet mouthpieces. One is a short shank with a very deep bowl, the standard type, and the other is an Arban type, with a longer shank and a shallower bowl. The longer shank is there so it can be in tune given the smaller bowl.

My impression is Bach popularized the long shank cornet mouthpiece in the US, and importantly those also were smaller bowls. Just like the Courtois Arban they were designed to be used on the same horn as the older style.
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Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces

[rufflicks]

Rob love has a line of different length mouthpieces.

http://www.brasswindresearch.com/HOME.html

Might find solid info there.
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