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DaveH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2001 Posts: 3861
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Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:07 pm Post subject: 3C VS 7C |
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I don't mean to start a redundant mouthpiece conversation. And, I am not a professional, "making a living on trumpet" player. Perhaps if I were such, I wouldn't have this issue. And, I am not a specialist - not a screamer - not an orchestral player - just general purpose playing.
However, some thoughts might help me get a better grip on this topic as it relates to me personally.
I grew up playing a Bach 1 1/4C. For many years.
Several years ago, I began to have some embouchure problems that were "diagnosed" as playing with too open an embouchure setting, and lips collapsing into the cup and difficulty making a sound. With some "coaching", I developed the lips together, "MMMM" formation. This almost immediately solved my playing problems and improved just about everything else.
At that time, I wanted to downsize the mouthpiece, since I thought that the 1 1/4C that I had been using for a long time might be too big and contributing to the lips being blown apart.
So, I went to a Bach 3C. Good mouthpiece; nice tone, comfort, volume, and flexibility, but I have never been completely sure of the reliability of attacks and articulation that are produced for me by that rim. Articulation and control are just not quite as precise. Tone is not quite as centered and sometimes a little "woofy".
Back about 2014, I decided to see what I could do with a Bach 7C. With some acclimation, I found that rim to be an improvement on accuracy, precision, intonation, and a little more focused sound.
So the conundrum is this....I can play them both about equally, but in doing so, I wish I had the best features of the other one...none of this has anything to do with range, and the 7C is not uncomfortable. I don't have the problems with it that many seem to have, although I do see why some players like the 3C rim in regard to comfort. But for me, the slight increase in comfort, volume, and flexibility comes with a trade off in precision and reliability of attacks and control.
I am grateful for any thoughts about this.... Playing both of them hasn't really caused any real problems, but I'm not sure if that is what needs to be done. I guess if I had the best qualities of each, I would have found what I might call the "perfect" general purpose mouthpiece for me. |
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khedger Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 754 Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Looking at the Bach mouthpiece manual the differences between the 1 1/4 C and the 3C are that the cup diameter is larger on the 11/4C and they describe the cup depth on the 11/4 as 'medium' and on the 3 as 'deep'. In the notes, they describe the 11/4 as 'large cup' and the 3 as 'fairly large cup'. 7C is a medium depth with an even smaller cup diameter than the 3.
I've played a 3C for decades. A few times I've tried playing a 11/2C in an attempt to get a darker sound, but after a few weeks always returned to the 3c. The reason? The 11/2 always caused too much fatigue.
https://www.bachbrass.com/application/files/4614/8521/7763/AV2BA901_Original_1889_web.pdf |
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MrOlds Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Apr 2003 Posts: 725 Location: California
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Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like you are more comfortable with the 7c. Maybe it’s the right choice for you.
Haveving said that, have you tried the 5c or 5b? Theoretically the 5c is between the 3c and 7c. There are a host of differences though.
The 5c a little deeper than the 3c but the diameter is a little smaller. Overall the cup volume of the 5c is bigger than the 3c so you’ll get some benefit in sound density from that. The inner edge the 5c is pronounced enough to give reasonable articulation.
Lots of vendors make a 5c-ish piece. Stork, Laskey, Curry. All are nice. Some differences between them.
If you want a 5c-ish piece with a 3c-ish rim profile (more comfy), the James New s4m might be a choice.
Orchestra guys sometimes have a 5b underpart matched to their 1-ish rims. Gives a big sound with brilliance. |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2163 Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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From your description, the 3C that you have does not work for you.
From your description, the 7C that you have works much better for you.
You might find another mouthpiece that works better for you than this 7C, but among the 3 mouthpieces you mention, that 7C is the winner. |
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khedger Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 754 Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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It's probably no coincidence that most beginners usually get steered to a 7c. The Bach manual says it's 'by far' the most widely used Bach mouthpiece in the world. I played one for the first 12 years I played the horn, so there's nothing wrong with it.
The real issue is whatever works for you and allows you to play what you want to play. I see some of the mouthpieces that famous, great players use and I'm totally amazed that they can even get a sound out of them. But that's what works for them......go for it. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9027 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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If you are looking for a subtle difference between a Bach 7C, try a Schilke 11. About the same dimensions as a 7C but, for me, more comfortable.
You could also try a Monette Silver, larger, like a 3C but there's something about its construction makes adaptable for those comfortable with a Bach 7C, also. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1472 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:52 am Post subject: Re: 3C VS 7C |
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DaveH wrote: | I don't mean to start a redundant mouthpiece conversation. And, I am not a professional, "making a living on trumpet" player. Perhaps if I were such, I wouldn't have this issue. And, I am not a specialist - not a screamer - not an orchestral player - just general purpose playing.
However, some thoughts might help me get a better grip on this topic as it relates to me personally.
I grew up playing a Bach 1 1/4C. For many years.
Several years ago, I began to have some embouchure problems that were "diagnosed" as playing with too open an embouchure setting, and lips collapsing into the cup and difficulty making a sound. With some "coaching", I developed the lips together, "MMMM" formation. This almost immediately solved my playing problems and improved just about everything else.
At that time, I wanted to downsize the mouthpiece, since I thought that the 1 1/4C that I had been using for a long time might be too big and contributing to the lips being blown apart.
So, I went to a Bach 3C. Good mouthpiece; nice tone, comfort, volume, and flexibility, but I have never been completely sure of the reliability of attacks and articulation that are produced for me by that rim. Articulation and control are just not quite as precise. Tone is not quite as centered and sometimes a little "woofy".
Back about 2014, I decided to see what I could do with a Bach 7C. With some acclimation, I found that rim to be an improvement on accuracy, precision, intonation, and a little more focused sound.
So the conundrum is this....I can play them both about equally, but in doing so, I wish I had the best features of the other one...none of this has anything to do with range, and the 7C is not uncomfortable. I don't have the problems with it that many seem to have, although I do see why some players like the 3C rim in regard to comfort. But for me, the slight increase in comfort, volume, and flexibility comes with a trade off in precision and reliability of attacks and control.
I am grateful for any thoughts about this.... Playing both of them hasn't really caused any real problems, but I'm not sure if that is what needs to be done. I guess if I had the best qualities of each, I would have found what I might call the "perfect" general purpose mouthpiece for me. |
Your tale does resemble mine! I began playing on my Bach 1 1/4 in 1970 and did so til 1995 or so when I got into trouble trying to fill a Bach cornet. Instead of taking lessons I began a safari including several Schilkes (variants of 14). Then I had a chops meltdown, met a teacher who corrected my embouchure.
So then I made my safari go a little further ending up with two makes:
1)Denis Wick 2)Stork. Denis Wick has a line called American Classic - https://www.deniswick.com/product/american-classic-trumpet-mouthpiece-silver-plated/ ranging from 1 1/2 to 7. Same very comfy rim throughout- far more comfy than the Bach rims (to my lips..). You can test which diameter is the best for you - much better tonal quality on these Wicks than on the Bachs - in my view (ears). From your description I guess one of these mpc:s might constitute "the "perfect" general purpose mouthpiece" for you!
The Stork I use is a StudioMaster VM6, rim close to the Wicks, enough depth to avoid bottoming (V andC cup), enough punch to be used as a lead piece. But that might not be in your interest! _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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BobD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2004 Posts: 1251 Location: Boston MA
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Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:17 am Post subject: |
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I've been going between a Bach 7C and Yamaha 14B4 and 14C4 pieces. I find I can go between the 7C and the 14's pretty comfortably while the 11C4 I have feels much smaller than the Bach 7C. So maybe try the 14's from Yamaha. You can get them used on the cheap right here on TH. _________________ Adams/ACB collaborative
Yamaha Shew Jazz and Bach 7C |
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khedger Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 754 Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:39 am Post subject: |
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I would add one more note of caution. Mine might not be a very popular opinion, but here goes:
When I was in high school, a lot of the guys I know started playing what I call 'mouthpiece roulette'. Constantly procuring yet another mouthpiece in the hopes that it would feel better, play better, whatever. I too engaged in this game for a short while. I quickly decided that this was folly. I had neither the funds nor the temperament to keep playing this game. So, what to do? I was 16 years old, I was self taught.
I started reading every interview with a trumpet player I could. I did everything I could to find out what mouthpiece the players I knew used, and why (remember this is LONG before google). After reading a whole bunch of books, articles, etc. I tabulated results and found that of the players I liked and heard on records, a whole bunch of them named a Bach 3c as the mouthpiece they used. I had been playing a 7c (and briefly a 101/2c). I got hold of a 3c and tried it out. I felt like I could understand why it was so widely used. It felt very similar to the 7c, but had a larger cup and allowed me to get a richer sound. It also tired me out, but I resolved to give it a couple of months of solid practice and judge the results.
I've pretty much played the 3c (or equivalent) since then.
Why am I telling you this? I would encourage you to find a mouthpiece you're comfortable with and stick with it. Sure, it's reasonable to check some alternatives if your unhappy every once in a while, but I would recommend the never ending game of 'mouthpiece roulette' that never seems to end for those who engage in it. Spend your time and energy learning to play.... |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9027 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:00 am Post subject: |
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@Seymor B Fudd. Thank you for putting a space between the 1s (1 1/4 etc.). At first, I was trying at first to figure out what a 11/4 was. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:11 am Post subject: |
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There's loads of variables at play here.. i
It's clear that by your assessments the 7c seems favourable, but it's not quite so clear why...
ID is different, rim contour is different, cup shape and volume are different, it'd be a fool that would even attempt to guess which factor was key here (and it maybe more than one of them, to different degrees).
To find out more would require methodical testing and probably cash outlay... If it's worth it to you, that's the next step... If it's not, then stick to one of them and practice (from reading your post, that sounds more likely the 7c to me, but it's up to you) |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:48 am Post subject: |
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The original post lacks enough detail about which specific attributes of each piece is lacking or is wanted.
That said, I might recommend the Bach 5C. It's got a rim I think is closer to the 7C than the 3C, and it's got plenty of cup volume. I've read posts that say the Curry equivalent is even better. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Last edited by cheiden on Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5680 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:28 am Post subject: |
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Try a couple of different 3Cs from other makers. I don't like the rim on a Bach 3C, but I like the rim on the Curry 3C, and I've heard that the rim on Austin Custom Brass 3Cs are also very, very comfortable.
As you can see from my signature, I'm currently using an ACB 3B, and I like it a lot. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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chapahi Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 1467 Location: Stuttgart, Germany
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Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | If you are looking for a subtle difference between a Bach 7C, try a Schilke 11. About the same dimensions as a 7C but, for me, more comfortable.
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True that. Also Laskey's 50C. It has the same kind of specs but nicer rim. _________________ Sima, Kanstul 1525 Flugel and Kanstul pocket trumpet. Olds Super |
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DaveH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2001 Posts: 3861
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Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Many thanks to all for these insights and suggestions.
I don't think there is much of a better or worse level of comfort either way, but definitely a different feel between these pieces.
I am influenced by lower register articulation, which is usually better on the 7C.
But the 3C does have some very good features - a little bigger tone and potential for volume, a little more flexibility.
I think it's mostly the rim design, and I think my old days on the 1 1/4C may be involved. The 7C may be a smaller "cousin" of that rim, more so than the 3C - and I may be experiencing some kind of "familiarity factor".
I know that with proper practice, I can probably get used to many things, but one thing I am sure of, and that is a 1 1/4C is too big nowadays...probably always was, and it took a while to find out. |
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AlbertHwang New Member
Joined: 28 Aug 2017 Posts: 10 Location: United States
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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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I've tried to play on a Schilke 16C4, but in the end I always go back to the 3C. My endurance and range take a giant hit on the 16C4 (which is about the size of a 1 1/2C). _________________ Albert |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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I'm a returnee and kind of frustrated by how hard it is to make sense of mouthpiece sizes. I'd played on a Schilke 15b years ago, which is supposed to be similar to a 3c. I restarted on a Carolbrass 3c because it's what I had. It felt a little big. Someone gave me a Dennis Wick 4b, which I loved, and was then surprised to read it is the DW version of a 7c. My son has a 7c and it feels smaller than the DW 4b.
But then in reading about Bach 3c, 5c, 7c, width and cup size are apparently not on a continuum. Why is "c" sometimes medium depth and sometimes deep? I think probably I am somewhere in the 7c/5c/3c range, but more towards a 5c.
For now I like the Dennis Wick 4b and will probably stick with it (I keep trying bigger mouthpieces but finding them to be too big). |
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khedger Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 754 Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | @Seymor B Fudd. Thank you for putting a space between the 1s (1 1/4 etc.). At first, I was trying at first to figure out what a 11/4 was. |
What, you've never played any Hank Levy charts?!?!? |
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rockford Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 Posts: 2477 Location: Northern VA
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote: |
But then in reading about Bach 3c, 5c, 7c, width and cup size are apparently not on a continuum. Why is "c" sometimes medium depth and sometimes deep? I think probably I am somewhere in the 7c/5c/3c range, but more towards a 5c. . | Bach mouthpieces were initially custom mouthpieces and weren't developed as a set. The 7,5 and 3 C's are by far the most popular for all around playing. Pick the one that's easiest to play that provides a sound you like and then put the others away. Good luck. _________________ Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190. |
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jjtrumpets New Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2017 Posts: 6 Location: Lancaster, OH
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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I started on an Olds 3 (like a Bach 7B), then my teacher moved me to a Bach 3C. I stuck with that until about halfway through college, then discovered the Bach 1C. I liked the bigger sound of the 1C, and it got me through grad school.
About a year ago, I decided that I'd try my Bach 3C/24bbr, my usual Eb trumpet mouthpiece, on Bb. I loved it. I loved how I didn't have to work so hard to light the sound up, and the upper register wasn't so flat and difficult.
After trying an ACB flugelhorn mouthpiece and *really* liking it, I decided to get an ACB 3C. It feels more comfortable than the Bach and blows a bit easier. It also plays well in tune and has a richer sound than the Bach 3C/standard 10 bbr. I've tried a few others, and settled on the ACB.
I spent 10 years on the Bach 3C and 20 years on the Bach 1C. While the mouthpiece choice makes a little difference for ease and sound production, there's not one out there that can substitute for what Arnold Jacobs calls "Song & Wind," and lots of musical practice.
You might like trying a used ACB--I like all of the mouthpieces I've gotten from them--but no matter what, your concept of the sound and the energy of relaxed blowing will be far more important.
Happy practicing!
JWH |
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