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Notice: Audition complaints


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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 7:48 pm    Post subject: Notice: Audition complaints Reply with quote

Some people seem to have the idea that Trumpet Herald is an appropriate place to complain about perceived unfairness at specific auditions.

Those people are wrong.

Remember that when you question the fairness of an audition you question the abilities of the person who won and the integrity and musicianship of the people on the committee. Further remember that it is safe to assume that they, or people they know well, read Trumpet Herald at least occasionally.

If you cannot control your compulsion to air your grievances on the internet, we suggest doing so on your Facebook page, rather than registering for an anonymous account here. That way the Moderators won't have to waste time banning you, and you won't have to worry about your posts being deleted.

Which they will be.

TL;DR KNOCK IT OFF.
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StevenE
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on some of what I have read about orchestral auditions in the past few years, the integrity of the process may legitimately be open to question.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StevenE wrote:
Based on some of what I have read about orchestral auditions in the past few years, the integrity of the process may legitimately be open to question.


That may be the case, but as the Moderators directed, don't do it here for the reasons given.
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StevenE
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you a moderator?
If you are not, you have no standing to tell me or anyone else to do or not do anything.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StevenE wrote:
Are you a moderator?
If you are not, you have no standing to tell me or anyone else to do or not do anything.


Sure I do. Any of us does and we can do it by simply pointing you to the rule, as posted above. It would be nice to have another contributing member. I'm simply trying to keep you from getting off on the wrong foot, since the penalty for violating this rule as stated is having posts removed and being banned.

But since you seem to refuse to take my word for it, I'll simply invite you to reread the first post in this thread. You know, the one the Moderators posted; the one you responded to.

Read it as many times as is needed for it to sink in.
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Dkjcliff
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old thread being resurrected here, but I have to admit I find the topic intriguing. I think that people shouldn’t use TH to personally impugn those who audition others or those who win auditions. But shouldn’t it be a place for trumpet players to discuss fairness in the audition process and problems of bias? If not to question the status quo, what is the internet for (wink)?
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dkjcliff wrote:
Old thread being resurrected here, but I have to admit I find the topic intriguing. I think that people shouldn’t use TH to personally impugn those who audition others or those who win auditions. But shouldn’t it be a place for trumpet players to discuss fairness in the audition process and problems of bias? If not to question the status quo, what is the internet for (wink)?


I would generally agree, however I agree more with this from the Moderators:

Quote:
Remember that when you question the fairness of an audition you question the abilities of the person who won and the integrity and musicianship of the people on the committee. Further remember that it is safe to assume that they, or people they know well, read Trumpet Herald at least occasionally.


Put yourself in the shoes of, say, a committee member who did his absolute best to be fair, or the winner who worked over many hard long hours (over many years, no doubt) to get to the skill needed to win, only to read a web forum and find that there are people complaining that the process wasn't fair or that it was somehow biased. It tends to invalidate all of the effort and hard work by the committee and musician who won, and tends to act as an underhanded personal attack.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never auditioned beyond a semi-pro big band 25 years ago (and made it ) but maybe to enlighten the uneducated like me, we could start off by simply going about how and what and so on about auditions? How do you prepare, how do the presentations work, how is the judging process going on, … The Berlin Philharmonics have just been looking for trumpets, so maybe I should have applied (just kidding).
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom, I agree with some of your post such as don’t be unfair to the selection committee and most judges will really attempt to be fair and yes, there will be tough or even no clear decisions.

However, I have sat on faculty search committees for many years and with this background it would still be interesting to learn how the decisions are made, what happens if you have a tie, etc. etc.?

The reason for asking is that we often times have the same problems: who is the absolute best candidate when you have a wild selection of equally great but very different applicants - and one of the major discussions that we have had for years is actually: how can we make the most transparent, yet selective and fair process to account for all the applicants abilities?

I think, if you look at the process and the pitfalls of an audition, including optimization potential, the discussion may actually be quite enlightening w/o becoming personal. This is a more general discussion of auditions that may be worthwhile pursuing. „Things can only get better“ (as quoted from The Average White Band ).
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was listening to a podcast recently and the interviewee mentioned an audition where he was living in New York and his teacher encouraged him to apply for an opera interview. He said he wasn't really qualified, but many, many players flew in and then the employer hired someone already working for them. I thought it was interesting and actually a theme in many of the podcasts is how folk got their current position and advice they have for auditions.

Brassnose mentioned academia, and actually academic interviews are infamous for insider hires, unknown criteria (must have gotten doctorate from a certain tier, prefer/dislike certain methods, must also be able to teach XYZ), personal connections, etc. In academic hires, schools often talk about "fit," which is pretty arbitrary. I think in music auditions have become a lot more fair, often with a blind audition portion.

That said, TH is a little more conservative in general and my guess is there's also a backstory on this notice. This probably isn't the place to complain about a terrible process. If someone had a good/bad/surprising experience, they'd probably be better off posting to reddit or somewhere else. I think I've also seen notices on TH listing auditions/hires as well as general advice, and those were all fine.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's important to understand that an audition for a professional position is not a 'contest to find the best player' - it's 'job interview' for long term employment.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And for this long term employment one does not want the best possible player (provided his/her other profile fits as well)? What am I missing?
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Aspeyrer
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best player for a job has a lot to do with personality and playing style. Of course, the winner is likely to be a good trumpet player that was able to demonstrate a certain level of performance on a particular day(s).
Taking nothing away from the winners, the best possible player is sometimes not a good fit. That is often, hopefully, identifiable in an audition; multiple rounds and often section playing. Sometimes, it doesn’t work out and great players don’t win/keep the job.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, that’s true for every job but probably quite important in such a complex environment.
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be fair to StevenE, his original post was not talking about perceived unfairness at a specific audition.

It seems to me that the moderators are proscribing posts like the following:

"At this year's XXX Symphony audition for 3rd chair trumpet, Trumpeter XXX did not deserve to win. The judges were biased."

Just sayin' . . .
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andybharms
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everything relevant to a hire can be ascertained in a live blind audition process and a trial week. It is not a “job interview,” unless you prefer to just work with your buddies who look, talk, and sound like you. When screens come down, politics goes up, and the ensemble suffers. Not to mention equity, diversity, and inclusion.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point. I just watched this over the weekend: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL-fgILOytA and my immediate thought was „Gee, that’s an all white band“ (turns out it is not quite true, but almost). So AA, EO and such do certainly make things even more complicated. Interesting and very useful discussion, however, that is just starting in Europe.

Which actually raised an audition-type question: how do you get in a band like this? Do you get your degree first and then apply or do you apply first and get your degree(s) along with your tenure in the band? They specifically mention the degrees of the tuba player along the concert, so I strongly presume everyone in the band has at least one, probably more, professional degrees.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
Which actually raised an audition-type question: how do you get in a band like this? Do you get your degree first and then apply or do you apply first and get your degree(s) along with your tenure in the band? They specifically mention the degrees of the tuba player along the concert, so I strongly presume everyone in the band has at least one, probably more, professional degrees.


This is how you get in:

https://www.marineband.marines.mil/Portals/175/Docs/Career%20Information/Career_Info_2021.pdf

Beyond simply "winning" the audition, there is an extensive background check for security clearance that is completed only after enlistment, and potential disqualifications are numerous.

As far as being an "all white band" I think part of the issue with professional musical organizations in the United States, such as orchestras, is the demographics comprising the audition pool. There may not be that much diversity of any type within the pool to begin with and this is not known ahead of time because the auditioners are behind a screen.

The trouble with targeting "diversity" or "equity" (not a very good term, in my opinion) or "inclusion" is striking a balance.

One can strive for the best musical ability possible which may in the end limit the diversity of the organization, or one can strive for diversity and representation but may end up limiting the musical product of the group as a whole if diversity is placed ahead of the musical product. Both of those scenarios potentially sow discontent.

It's not an easy balance and the task of balancing it is not one I envy.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an article on blind auditions and how they dramatically improved the presence of women in orchestras:
https://gap.hks.harvard.edu/orchestrating-impartiality-impact-%E2%80%9Cblind%E2%80%9D-auditions-female-musicians

Many of us have implicit biases (also about age, appearance, etc.) and I think any way to filter those out is helpful.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Tom: Yes, very difficult indeed, thanks for the info. As I am too old and not an American I won’t make it anyway but at least I match the height/weight requirements
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