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Tongue behind lower teeth



 
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kokopelli
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:02 am    Post subject: Tongue behind lower teeth Reply with quote

I tried al kind of positions :tip of tongue behind lower teeth,on top of lower lip,ice cream licking.....never seemed to get a solid lower lip.....Today I discoverred that if I put my tongue,wide in front of my lower teeth and arched against the back of my upper teeth,setting up first on lower lip pushing arched lip solid against top lip;that I feel a lot of strength,power om my lower lip (solid)and playing is so more easy.....maybe strange way to set up but it really works....maybe I discoverred tce.....although my toungue tip is in front off lower teeth.For me a way to of solid lower lip to put mouthpiece on and prevent lower lip from dropping down.
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kokopelli
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tittle should be :Tongue in front of lower teeth!
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khedger
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you'll have real trouble trying to articulate with that setup, but hey, whatever works!
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kokopelli
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When setting up I push the tongue up (lower lip) and then grip the upper .So on the attaque my tongue pushes against the lower lip , curled over lowerteeth (1 inch).I articulate against bottom edge of upper teeth/back of the teeth.So the tongue is up more then on the setting up....just a way to get it really in front,curled and touching the upper lip; pushing against the lower lip .
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kokopelli wrote:
I tried al kind of positions :tip of tongue behind lower teeth,on top of lower lip,ice cream licking.....never seemed to get a solid lower lip.....Today I discoverred that if I put my tongue,wide in front of my lower teeth and arched against the back of my upper teeth,setting up first on lower lip pushing arched lip solid against top lip;that I feel a lot of strength,power om my lower lip (solid)and playing is so more easy.....maybe strange way to set up but it really works....maybe I discoverred tce.....although my toungue tip is in front off lower teeth.For me a way to of solid lower lip to put mouthpiece on and prevent lower lip from dropping down.


The set up you've found isn't too dissimilar to a drawing that Jerry was sharing back around 2004... It didn't last long as ideas come and go.

Finding the initial tongue position is not always as intuitive many would have you believe. I would hasten you to just take a quick lesson with somebody who knows. It will save you a lot of going back and forth and never knowing if you're on the right track.
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epoustoufle
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a diagram on the internet showing this configuration:

http://abel.hive.no/trumpet/callet/

In the beginning I also tried different tongue positions and eventually settled on a more "normal" (TCE) position. I read on older posts that the position of the tip of the tongue is not really important - and I would agree with that now - the important stuff is happening further back. It took me about 6 months of trial and error so if you are comfortable trusting someone else to walk you through it then you could avoid that!

In my humble opinion, the best way to find the TCE embouchure setup is through the double pedals. Richard (the previous poster) is somewhat of a guru in this matter. It still bears repeating (by me ) what the primary purpose of double pedals is.

IMHO, primarily they are not to strengthen muscles nor relax the lip tissue (although they may do this). They are to get the feeling of how to play a TCE embouchure. The Master Superchops video [....] has some examples [....]

The student in the video plays them the way I do (bear in mind, I'm beginner/intermediate too but this is what put me on the right path). The mouthpiece sits on the top lip and the tongue. The bottom lip is not involved. You are trying to create a wide surface between the top lip and tongue. The tongue is kind of U-shaped and it feels like it forms a tunnel with the roof of the mouth. The top lip is **slightly** rolled in. When it works, the double pedal notes seem to "slot", by which I mean the notes change cleanly when you depress the values.

That feeling of top lip and tongue interaction is what you need to bring up to the normal register. Obviously you need to bring the bottom lip back into play in the normal register. I've not found it helpful trying to slur from the double pedal to normal register. I'm looking for stability and this is a large motion that unsettles everything. Rather, just break and reseat the mouthpiece on the lips but try to remember how the top lip and tongue interact.

I also did not find the "ice cream lick" that Callet talks about to be useful - I spent plenty of time doing icecream licks and it's a large motion with a lot of moving parts.

Hope it helps! Good luck

Edited by Moderators - you cannot copy or post links to copyrighted material on the TH. Be respectful of the author you reference.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kokopelli wrote:
Tittle should be :Tongue in front of lower teeth!


You can fix the title by going to your first post in this thread and push the Edit button, then change the title as you wish.
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Justus
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

epoustoufle wrote:
I've not found it helpful trying to slur from the double pedal to normal register. I'm looking for stability and this is a large motion that unsettles everything. Rather, just break and reseat the mouthpiece on the lips but try to remember how the top lip and tongue interact.



I absolutely agree. Especially for people just starting out, the double pedals are a very valuable exercise as they provide a way to find the correct TCE setup with the trumpet without running the risk of getting into old habits such as mp pressure or stretching.
However, IMHO moving from Einsetzen to Ansetzen is a very complex exercise where a lot can go wrong.
At this point, I stay away from this manoeuvre completely. Instead, I play some double pedals, reset my chops for regular playing while trying to keep the feeling of the double pedal note in terms of tongue and chin.



That being said: If you've mastered TCE, you will surely be able to do the Einsetzen-Ansetzen manoeuvre correctly, but (based on my personal experience) I highly question the usefulness of this exercise for beginner or intermediate TCE players.
And even for very advanced players, the following two videos made me question the validity of the exercise in general:

Rich

Bahb Civiletti


Clearly, both can articulate notes in the extreme upper register very well. When slurring up from the double pedals though, the upper register sounds less full, the notes don't slot as well and there is less accuracy.
So in spite of being able to claim that one can "slur 5 1/2 octaves", what is the point of doing this exercise?

PS: I thoroughly recommend checking out Richs "Brass Practice" channel linked above to anyone seriously looking into TCE. Besides the channel of Herb Smith and videos of Vlado Kumpan, this helped me a lot to really understand what TCE sounds like.
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justus, the "problems" that you describe are exactly the purpose of doing these exercises. It is so that you can uncover a more efficient lip setting.
If you discourage someone from doing the exercise because they find it difficult then you might as well tell them to give up now!

I really wish you would actually have some lessons rather than just dishing out advise about things that you clearly don't understand.

I thank you for the respect you show me in your post, but in all the time you and I have been talking you have never followed even the simplest of instructions that I've freely given you and now you're going around telling people not to do an exercise just because you could never make it work.

Einsetzen/Ansetzen is supposed to be difficult at first! That is because it is teaching you things. This movement is the most difficult thing you can do with your lips, but it shows you that everything else we do is just a far less exaggerated version of the same movement.
_________________
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https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justus wrote:

That being said: If you've mastered TCE, you will surely be able to do the Einsetzen-Ansetzen manoeuvre correctly, but (based on my personal experience) I highly question the usefulness of this exercise for beginner or intermediate TCE players. And even for very advanced players, the following two videos made me question the validity of the exercise in general

Clearly, both can articulate notes in the extreme upper register very well. When slurring up from the double pedals though, the upper register sounds less full, the notes don't slot as well and there is less accuracy.
So in spite of being able to claim that one can "slur 5 1/2 octaves", what is the point of doing this exercise?


Justus, the purpose of the exercises has nothing to do with range, it's about learning the movement. This is made clear in Bahb's TCE Training Manual, Trumpet Yoga, and my EDPR book, all of which I know you have access to.

The reason that we learn to play from Double Pedal C to Double High C is simple - it's a challenge. If you can do this then you have the chops to learn to play anything you want.

Your logic just doesn't make sense - how is someone meant to develop from intermediate to advanced without doing the exercises? You don't "master TCE" first and then figure out how you did it afterwards, as your post suggests. If you'd like to see young children playing einsetzen/ansetzen then just watch the video from the clinic on his channel. It won't gain you any insight though. Insight will come from practising the exercises.
_________________
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https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/
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Justus
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:

If you discourage someone from doing the exercise because they find it difficult then you might as well tell them to give up now!


trumpetplanet wrote:

Einsetzen/Ansetzen is supposed to be difficult at first! That is because it is teaching you things. This movement is the most difficult thing you can do with your lips, but it shows you that everything else we do is just a far less exaggerated version of the same movement.


Of course I understand that, in theory, this is the intention behind it. And I am sure that many people have found this exercise to be useful. The point is not even that the exercise is difficult though, but rather that, due to the extreme nature of the movement, many things can go wrong which can result in incorrect muscle memory.

trumpetplanet wrote:

and now you're going around telling people not to do an exercise just because you could never make it work.


If you read my post carefully, you will notice that I am describing my own experiences, but at no point explicitly recommending or demanding anyone else to do or think what I do.

My only very general explicit advise is the following: If you do something and it does not make you improve, stop doing it. This was the case for me (and apparently the user "epoustoufle") with the Einsetzen-Ansetzen exercise.

As an aside: Perhaps it is fair to say that the Einsetzen-Ansetzen exercise is generally not very well suited to extremely anlytically-minded players (i.e. players who learn by understanding an embouchure analytically rather than intuitively).
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Justus
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:

Your logic just doesn't make sense - how is someone meant to develop from intermediate to advanced without doing the exercises? You don't "master TCE" first and then figure out how you did it afterwards, as your post suggests.


There are countless other exercises one can do, such as: spit buzzing, practicing repeated (throat) attacks, slurring in the trumpet register and playing double pedals (etc.).

Einsetzen-Ansetzen is one of many exercises designed to help you to learn how to play with your tongue on the lips. Thus, it is logically flawed to say it was in some sense a necessary condition for doing so.
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justus wrote:
Einsetzen-Ansetzen is one of many exercises designed to help you to learn how to play with your tongue on the lips. Thus, it is logically flawed to say it was in some sense a necessary condition for doing so.


It isn't designed to help you learn how to play with your tongue on the lips.
_________________
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Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.

https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/
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Justus
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:

It isn't designed to help you learn how to play with your tongue on the lips.


I know what you're alluding to with this rather pedantic response, but since I have no immediate plans of becoming either Callets biographer or publisher, I don't really care.
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justus wrote:
trumpetplanet wrote:

It isn't designed to help you learn how to play with your tongue on the lips.


I know what you're alluding to with this rather pedantic response, but since I have no immediate plans of becoming either Callets biographer or publisher, I don't really care.


Sorry, but I don't know what you think I'm alluding to. I just want these facts to be set straight. The point of this forum is for people to learn about and discuss the system. This can't happen if there is misinformation. What you said was wrong, that's all.

If you want to know more about beginners using double pedal tones then have a look through the Balanced Embouchure sub-forum too.

Justus wrote:
As an aside: Perhaps it is fair to say that the Einsetzen-Ansetzen exercise is generally not very well suited to extremely anlytically-minded players (i.e. players who learn by understanding an embouchure analytically rather than intuitively).


I would take this opinion to the Chicago School guys and see what they have to say about it. You are just spouting nonsense to justify your impatience and unwillingness to follow instructions.
_________________
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Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.

https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/
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