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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:17 am    Post subject: Pressure Reply with quote

There was an article some year ago in the ITG journal about a study of mouthpiece pressure using a transducer to measure the PSI.

Does anyone have that article?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is still something going on, unfortunately ...
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brassmusician
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Hickman discusses this study in his Trumpet Pedagogy Book. His reference is: "Science proves musical myths wrong" ITG Journal May 1998 p12. I will see if I can find it on the ITG past issue CD I got years ago. The study is interesting because it demonstrates that professional and amateur players use similar amounts of pressure when playing but the more developed embouchure of the professional player withstands the pressure, preventing the lips being squashed and endurance being reduced. At least, this is my take on it.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember that article. The two things that stood out to me were, the one major player they tested registered enough pressure that they thought the device to off and re-calibrated it, with the same results. The other was that professionals use MORE pressure in the lower register than amateurs, and that their pressure was more even from top to bottom.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also remember the teachers were asked to tell which students were using more pressure. They were wrong more than they were right.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fabulous! There's hope for me yet.
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enviroman22
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 3:52 pm    Post subject: Awesome insight. Thanks Reply with quote

brassmusician wrote:
Dave Hickman discusses this study in his Trumpet Pedagogy Book. His reference is: "Science proves musical myths wrong" ITG Journal May 1998 p12. I will see if I can find it on the ITG past issue CD I got years ago. The study is interesting because it demonstrates that professional and amateur players use similar amounts of pressure when playing but the more developed embouchure of the professional player withstands the pressure, preventing the lips being squashed and endurance being reduced. At least, this is my take on it.


Awesome insight. Thanks
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There was an article some year ago in the ITG journal about a study of mouthpiece pressure using a transducer to measure the PSI.


I suspect that what can be measured is force, as in N or lb.(of force) not "pressure", as in PSI.

We refer to it as mouthpiece "pressure" in the popular language, but it is actually force.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
There was an article some year ago in the ITG journal about a study of mouthpiece pressure using a transducer to measure the PSI.


I suspect that what can be measured is force, as in N or lb.(of force) not "pressure", as in PSI.

We refer to it as mouthpiece "pressure" in the popular language, but it is actually force.



I think everyone probably knows what we are talking about.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PSI sounds like breath pressure to me, not mpc pressure, or the force exerted by the player on the trumpet and mpc against his lips. You can't measure force in PSI. Pushing the lips together or using a lip roll can generate a lot of PSI (breath pressure) without much mpc pressure. You can lip buzz a DHC without any mpc pressure and then put the horn to the lips with a minimum of pressure and produce a DHC. You might in practice use more "arm pressure" but it is possible to get the note with very little.

Perhaps not where the OP was going, but who cares what the study says, if the best way to play is with as little are pressure as you can manage? Who would seriously claim that more arm pressure to mangle your lips is better? Oh, I forgot, this is TH, so somebody...
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mm55
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

royjohn wrote:
Pushing the lips together or using a lip roll can generate a lot of PSI (breath pressure) without much mpc pressure.

Actually, no it can't.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm55 wrote
Quote:

Actually, no it can't.


[referring to lips alone generating breath pressure]

What I meant is that a person can generate a "lot" of breath pressure given the amount of pressure lungs can produce. Yes, certainly is it possible to generate more pressure by using a lot of arm pressure...but I'm defining a "lot" as the amount it takes to play DHC and picc...

What did you mean? Could you explain?
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mm55
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Squeezing the lips together does not increase air pressure. Applying mouthpiece force on the lips (with the arms) does not increase air pressure. If by "breath pressure" you mean air pressure (in Pa, for instance), then neither force applied by the mouthpiece on the lips (in N for instance), nor force applied by the lips against each other (in N, for instance), can produce "breath pressure". The air pressure, in general, is produced by the muscles of the chest walls. Not the lips, and not the force of the mouthpiece against the lips.

If you what you mean by "breath pressure" is something other than air pressure, then this is a case where the "I think everyone probably knows what we are talking about" theory fails.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree with this. Air is forced out of the lings by the chest and abdomen muscles, yes. Yes, the force is created by these muscles If your mouth and throat are open and you exhale, even as forcefully as you can, the pressure measured at your open mouth will be less than if your lips are held together to produce a buzz. Pressure times area equals force. The higher your buzz frequency, the more open-close cycles there are and the smaller the effective area averaged over time.

So I'd have to agree that if you push your lips together, no matter how forcefully or how weakly, without using your breathing muscles to produce a force to push the breath out, there won't be any pressure at all. he amount of force could be constant if you can control your breathing muscles that well, but the effective size of the orifice does have a hand in determining the pressure measured in the mouth and lungs.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the measuring interface a gizmo that goes between the mouthpiece and the receiver?
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Air is forced out of the lings by the chest and abdomen muscles, yes.


The muscles of exhalation can create pressure in the lungs regardless of air flow, or not. The air will flow if it has a path to a lower pressure area.

Quote:
Yes, the force is created by these muscles If your mouth and throat are open and you exhale, even as forcefully as you can, the pressure measured at your open mouth will be less than if your lips are held together to produce a buzz.


This condition of open-mouth/no-instrument is never the case while playing the trumpet. So it is an irrelevant point.

Quote:
Pressure times area equals force. The higher your buzz frequency, the more open-close cycles there are and the smaller the effective area averaged over time.


The average opening size is independent of frequency if there were no change in the physical size. However the aperture is physically smaller with increased pitch.

While there are differences in average aperture size for various pitches, these are ALL relatively small compared to the area exposed to the pressure. That is, the entire area that encloses the pressure. You also have the resistance (due to acoustic impedance) of the instrument itself. You are ignoring that.

The air pressure provided by the exhalation effort is NOT increased or decreased by the effective aperture size (or the complete resistance in general). However, the air flow will vary.

Quote:
the amount of force could be constant if you can control your breathing muscles that well, but the effective size of the orifice does have a hand in determining the pressure measured in the mouth and lungs.


Absolutely not true in this case. The air pressure in the oral space is always very close to the lung air pressure. The flow will then vary with the resistance encountered.

The force of the mouthpiece by the player also has no bearing on the air pressure.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Kalijah,
Well, perhaps I have blundered in where I shouldn't, as you seem to know a whole lot about all these variables. But your statements provoke a lot of questions.

You state that there isn't any difference in pressure with aperture size, leaving out the fact that the lips are open and shut for various amounts of time, probably depending on the amount of force used to try to keep them closed. I think we should be talking about aperture size, amount of time open and shut and frequency, for starters. If there isn't any difference in pressure in various aperture sizes, lip pressures, pitches, etc., why do I feel (even when lip buzzing without the instrument) I'm using a lot more force for high notes than low ones?

Initially I was just pointing out that the study probably measured air pressure in the oral cavity and lungs (yes, I agree they'd be the same) rather than the arm pressure exerted at the mpc.

I'm interested in hearing where your conclusions come from because I don't know how much scientific study has been done on this.

For practical purposes, I was just stating my belief that less mpc (arm) pressure is better as long as one can maintain an air seal. Along with less arm pressure, I would think this would allow the use of minimum lip muscle pressure for a given note, and greater efficiency and endurance, but perhaps I'm wrong on this and you can enlighten me.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If there isn't any difference in pressure in various aperture sizes, lip pressures, pitches, etc., why do I feel (even when lip buzzing without the instrument) I'm using a lot more force for high notes than low ones?


I guess you mean more air pressure through blowing effort.

Simply put; The pressure is changing due to your blowing effort. Not the state of the aperture.

The higher notes ARE more resistive. (For a number of reasons.) But the pressure is still determined by the "blowing" effort.

Quote:
Initially I was just pointing out that the study probably measured air pressure in the oral cavity and lungs (yes, I agree they'd be the same) rather than the arm pressure exerted at the mpc.


The study in question did measure force of mouthpiece against the face. It did not measure air pressure in the oral space as far as I can remember.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That’s great news.
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