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Dennis78 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2015 Posts: 673 Location: Cincinnati
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 2:00 am Post subject: Re: Brass band sound |
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eyeshouldbebetter wrote: | I finally sold my King Super 20 Silver Sonic last year, so no longer doing the cornet. When I did play it, a good old Bach 5c seemed to work pretty well. |
How’d that setup fair in a BBB setting? Seems like that combo would be really trumpet-y _________________ a few different ones |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8331 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 10:14 am Post subject: |
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I've got an old King Master and I can say that with a trumpet mouthpiece its definitely much more trumpet than cornet, and not really BBB cornet, at that.
Good jazz, Dixie, trad horn, though. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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thomasjet123 Regular Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2018 Posts: 16 Location: Yorkshire, England
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 10:32 am Post subject: |
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For the true 'brass band' sound it has to be the Dennis Wick 4b, I am in the whole brass band thing and if I asked most of my peers they would recommend the 4b |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1459 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 12:40 am Post subject: |
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thomasjet123 wrote: | For the true 'brass band' sound it has to be the Dennis Wick 4b, I am in the whole brass band thing and if I asked most of my peers they would recommend the 4b |
So I`m the only one advocating a Wick Ultra. Hmm why is that?
Me being a different kind of animal or perhaps related to the fact I also
play big band trumpet?
But so does Louise!
Anyhow the Ultra propelled by me gives me a nice rounded sound, upstairs and downstairs - blending very well. _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1720 Location: UK
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 1:49 am Post subject: |
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Seymor B Fudd wrote: | thomasjet123 wrote: | For the true 'brass band' sound it has to be the Dennis Wick 4b, I am in the whole brass band thing and if I asked most of my peers they would recommend the 4b |
So I`m the only one advocating a Wick Ultra. Hmm why is that?
Me being a different kind of animal or perhaps related to the fact I also
play big band trumpet?
But so does Louise!
Anyhow the Ultra propelled by me gives me a nice rounded sound, upstairs and downstairs - blending very well. |
I suspect a combination of lack of exposure and the ultra being significantly brighter than the Wick B-cups....
Maybe there's an element that people who generally like Wick's wouldn't be so keen anyway, and people who don't like Wick's wouldn't be as interested in trying them?
Either way, I thought the ultra played well but the sound was just too bright |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5461 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 2:43 am Post subject: |
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Seymor B Fudd wrote: | thomasjet123 wrote: | For the true 'brass band' sound it has to be the Dennis Wick 4b, I am in the whole brass band thing and if I asked most of my peers they would recommend the 4b |
So I`m the only one advocating a Wick Ultra. Hmm why is that?
Me being a different kind of animal or perhaps related to the fact I also
play big band trumpet?
But so does Louise!
Anyhow the Ultra propelled by me gives me a nice rounded sound, upstairs and downstairs - blending very well. |
Hi Seymor
Regarding me personally, I've never seen a Wick Ultra in the flesh. No retailers in my part of the UK stocked them, and they were quickly discontinued, quite possibly because too few people got to try them for the range to take off.
Take care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5461 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 2:44 am Post subject: |
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TKSop wrote: | Seymor B Fudd wrote: | thomasjet123 wrote: | For the true 'brass band' sound it has to be the Dennis Wick 4b, I am in the whole brass band thing and if I asked most of my peers they would recommend the 4b |
So I`m the only one advocating a Wick Ultra. Hmm why is that?
Me being a different kind of animal or perhaps related to the fact I also
play big band trumpet?
But so does Louise!
Anyhow the Ultra propelled by me gives me a nice rounded sound, upstairs and downstairs - blending very well. |
Hi TKSop
I suspect a combination of lack of exposure and the ultra being significantly brighter than the Wick B-cups....
Thanks very much. I haven't tried the Ultra, so personally cannot comment on what it sounds like, but if the Ultra is significantly brighter than the B cups, I can see why it would not be popular in British Brass Bands. It however seems to be working for Seymor in his band setting, which suggests that either his band has a brighter sound concept and/or brighter sounding cornets and/or mouthpieces, or that the Ultra is not significantly brighter for everyone. As I say, I haven't played one, so don't personally know.
Maybe there's an element that people who generally like Wick's wouldn't be so keen anyway, and people who don't like Wick's wouldn't be as interested in trying them?
Quite possibly. I don't like Denis Wick rims, so am not particularly interested in trying them. I prefer a rim that falls away slightly towards the outside, like my Bach 3C rim. I can't really explain this any better if it doesn't make sense, than to suggest people comparing the B3C rim to the WK rims on the Kanstul comparator. I don't like the Bach 6 rim for the same reason, basically too flat and high towards the outside. I find this rim style uncomfortable.
Either way, I thought the ultra played well but the sound was just too bright
I imagine that this depends very much on a player's inherent brightness of sound, and the sounds of the rest of the section.
Take care
Lou |
_________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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malden Regular Member
Joined: 01 Feb 2018 Posts: 38 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 4:01 am Post subject: |
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Last week I had a chance to play test a brand new Smith-Watkins K2 cornet, an absolutely stunning horn by the way, with both a DW Ultra 3 and a Curry 3BBC. The Ultra had the most beautiful broad and mellow sound on the K2 while the BBC was quite a bit more bright; and the consensus of opinion favored the Wick mouthpiece on the SW. We played both mouthpieces subsequently on a ’59 Olds Recording cornet, and the results were the same.
We were curious because given the specs of the two mouthpieces, we would have expected contrary results: the Wick Ultra 3 is a 3.8mm, and the Curry 3BBC a 4.1mm throat. We didn't have a DW 4B (4.3mm) to test. Would have been interesting.
Cheers |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 7:15 am Post subject: |
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I still wonder about putting a curry 3 rim on a Wick underpart. That could well be the 'take my money' mouthpiece for people that don't get along with the Wick rim. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5461 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 7:40 am Post subject: |
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RandyTX wrote: | I still wonder about putting a curry 3 rim on a Wick underpart. That could well be the 'take my money' mouthpiece for people that don't get along with the Wick rim. |
Hi RandyTX
As someone who has had a 3C rim put on a Wick 4B underpart twice, with originally a poor outcome then a good one, the secret in my opinion is to maintain a much as possible of the initial entrance into the top of the cup of the Denis Wick mouthpiece, or to put it another way, to have the transition between the rim and cup as near to the bite of the mouthpiece as possible.
When I asked Jim New about doing this with either a Yamaha 16E or Lewington-McCann cornet mouthpiece, he said:
So to answer your questions, yes we can get a mouthpiece scanned and then figure out what needs to be done to mate it to your 3C rim. I wouldn’t want to do a screw rim because the match never is quite right without modification, and without the scan it would be anybodies guess which way the match was off.
Don’t know if the different rim would effect the playing characteristics of the piece without a scan as well. If the inner diameters are close it should play similar, If they are widely apart there could be playing differences.
I trust what Jim New says.
I originally had Jim New make me a screw rim version of my rim with Reeves threads, which I sent to Bob Reeves along with a Denis Wick 4B, to have the Denis Wick 4B turned into an underpart. If I remember correctly, I found out at a later date that Bach threads would have resulted in the join between the rim and cup being nearer the rim. Anyway, this mouthpiece didn't play very well, and had lost the sound of the Denis Wick 4B.
Mike Prestage who used to post on my forum, did my second version, using the same screw rim as before. He measured it and found that it was bigger than a Bach 1 1/2C rim, which he used for the same purpose a short while before, and much larger that the cup diameter of an original Denis Wick 4B. We started again with another Denis Wick 4B, and Mike Prestage removed metal from the top of the cup of the Denis Wick 4B to match the larger rim, then altered the transtition between the rim and cup, to match the alpha angle and transition from the rim to cup, of a Denis Wick B cup. We probably ended up with something like a Denis Wick 3B or 2B, with my large variant 3C rim. This mouthpiece plays well and sounds like a Denis Wick B cup.
Although Mike Prestage did it via a screw rim, I imagine that digitally combining the two mouthpieces and adjusting the parameters, would allow you to ensure that you kept as much of the original Denis Wick cup shape and little of the donor rim, as possible.
I hope that this will help.
Best wishes
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 8:02 am Post subject: |
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Very interesting information there, Louise. Does either of the custom attempts you made still have the same feel of the 3C you started with, or did you find that changing the shape as it flows into the cup altered the feel noticeably?
Maybe the secret of the Wick sound is the uncomfortable (for me at least) rim.
I hope not, but perhaps that is the case. With Curry at least, his rims across the size range seem to *all* feel quite comfortable to me as far as contour goes. Maybe scanning a Wick 4B and digitally looking for the rim size that lines up the best to begin with, then 'countouring' (??) it to line up properly would be the way to go. It wouldn't have to be a 3 exactly for me to get along with it.
Maybe some of the mouthpiece makers that visit the forum regularly could comment on how far off I am on this line of thinking. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5461 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 8:55 am Post subject: |
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RandyTX wrote: | Very interesting information there, Louise.
Hi RandyTX
You are very welcome.
Does either of the custom attempts you made still have the same feel of the 3C you started with, or did you find that changing the shape as it flows into the cup altered the feel noticeably?
The first version had the top of the cup of my 3C, so felt exactly like my 3C. The second version feels like my 3C at the rim, but the lower alpha angle makes it feel like a deeper cup, on the same lines but to a less exaggerated extent as the difference in feel between my 3C trumpet mouthpiece and
3CFL flugel mouthpiece.
Maybe the secret of the Wick sound is the uncomfortable (for me at least) rim.
I would say that the Wick sound is at least partly dependent on the transition between the rim and the top of the cup, and that if you alter this shape, you alter the sound, and that when combining a different rim and Wick cup digitally, that you need to transition into the cup shape of the Wick, as early as possible. It may very well be the case that only a Wick rim allows the full transition between rim and cup of a Wick mouthpiece.
I hope not, but perhaps that is the case. With Curry at least, his rims across the size range seem to *all* feel quite comfortable to me as far as contour goes. Maybe scanning a Wick 4B and digitally looking for the rim size that lines up the best to begin with, then 'countouring' (??) it to line up properly would be the way to go. It wouldn't have to be a 3 exactly for me to get along with it.
Yes, I feel that this would be the way to go, and would suggest Jim New as the person to do it. When you say contouring it to line up properly, I really feel that would necessitate preserving the entrance into the cup of the original Denis Wick mouthpiece. Scaling the original Denis Wick mouthpiece or rim, would probably also be a good idea, to allow them to be better matched together.
Maybe some of the mouthpiece makers that visit the forum regularly could comment on how far off I am on this line of thinking.
Yes, sounds like a good idea.
All the best
Lou |
_________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1459 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 9:49 am Post subject: |
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Louise Finch wrote: | TKSop wrote: | Seymor B Fudd wrote: | thomasjet123 wrote: | For the true 'brass band' sound it has to be the Dennis Wick 4b, I am in the whole brass band thing and if I asked most of my peers they would recommend the 4b |
So I`m the only one advocating a Wick Ultra. Hmm why is that?
Me being a different kind of animal or perhaps related to the fact I also
play big band trumpet?
But so does Louise!
Anyhow the Ultra propelled by me gives me a nice rounded sound, upstairs and downstairs - blending very well. |
Hi TKSop
I suspect a combination of lack of exposure and the ultra being significantly brighter than the Wick B-cups....
Thanks very much. I haven't tried the Ultra, so personally cannot comment on what it sounds like, but if the Ultra is significantly brighter than the B cups, I can see why it would not be popular in British Brass Bands. It however seems to be working for Seymor in his band setting, which suggests that either his band has a brighter sound concept and/or brighter sounding cornets and/or mouthpieces, or that the Ultra is not significantly brighter for everyone. As I say, I haven't played one, so don't personally know.
Maybe there's an element that people who generally like Wick's wouldn't be so keen anyway, and people who don't like Wick's wouldn't be as interested in trying them?
Quite possibly. I don't like Denis Wick rims, so am not particularly interested in trying them. I prefer a rim that falls away slightly towards the outside, like my Bach 3C rim. I can't really explain this any better if it doesn't make sense, than to suggest people comparing the B3C rim to the WK rims on the Kanstul comparator. I don't like the Bach 6 rim for the same reason, basically too flat and high towards the outside. I find this rim style uncomfortable.
Either way, I thought the ultra played well but the sound was just too bright
I imagine that this depends very much on a player's inherent brightness of sound, and the sounds of the rest of the section.
Take care
Lou |
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Hi again! Well, the other ”frontrowers” use Wick 4B (2), 1 Heritage, 1 switching between 4B and Curry TC.
I’ve been accused of much but never of sounding too bright!
I find the rim very comfy - I don’t like the rims of standard Wicks.
I definitively agree on the importance of one’s way of playing. If I want to I can sound bright but I generally don’t.
Saving possible brightness for other occasions _________________ Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5461 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 10:13 am Post subject: |
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Seymor B Fudd wrote: |
Hi again! Well, the other ”frontrowers” use Wick 4B (2), 1 Heritage, 1 switching between 4B and Curry TC.
Hi Seymor
You don't say what Heritage model, but the others in your section seem to be on predominantly Wick B cup depths, rather than Wick no letter deps, which would probably make a difference.
I’ve been accused of much but never of sounding too bright!
Well, this is the definitive answer to this, at least with you on the end!
I find the rim very comfy - I don’t like the rims of standard Wicks.
Interesting, thanks.
I definitively agree on the importance of one’s way of playing. If I want to I can sound bright but I generally don’t.
Saving possible brightness for other occasions
All sounds good.
Take care
Lou |
_________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Harry Hilgers Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2015 Posts: 637
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Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:30 am Post subject: I haven't been on the Herald for a while .... |
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I haven't been on the Herald for a while. Did y'all notice that sometimes life gets in the way of the things we want to do?
So first of all: I am glad to be back.
And second: Hi TKSop, Hi Louise, Hi Dennis78 and (as my Texas friend would say) Hi yawl ...
malden wrote: |
Last week I had a chance to play test a brand new Smith-Watkins London K2 cornet, an absolutely stunning horn ...................
Cheers |
+1
I bought a Watkins K2 London Cornet from Jack Kanstul about a year or so ago. (The K2 is actually made by Kanstul).
Over the years I have play-tested a lot of Cornets for BBB purposes. FOR ME for that BBB sound, the K2 tops them all.
My other Cornet is a middle eighties Bach 184ML Gold Brass Bell. Very excellent horn but FOR ME much harder to get a mouthpiece for it that makes it BBB sounding. If my memory serves me right, Louise had similar experiences with the 184.
Recently I had to go down in size on all my mouthpieces (reasons are age related physical "stuff" and not important here). So now I am using a Curry 10.5 BBC. It gives me the BBB sound I look for.
There was the other advantage. Dealing with Jack Kanstul is about one of the most pleasant experiences I have ever had.
I have bought several horns from Jack Kanstul including their famous 1525 Flugelhorn (I think TKSop suggested I try that Flugel. Thanks for that sugestion). THAT Flugel seems to play itself, so to speak.
Each Kanstul's horns have been a tremendous success for me.
I am also using Jack's modular pieces (as well as those made by James New). |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5461 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 10:56 am Post subject: Re: I haven't been on the Herald for a while .... |
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Harry Hilgers wrote: | I haven't been on the Herald for a while. Did y'all notice that sometimes life gets in the way of the things we want to do?
So first of all: I am glad to be back.
And second: Hi TKSop, Hi Louise, Hi Dennis78 and (as my Texas friend would say) Hi yawl ...
malden wrote: |
Last week I had a chance to play test a brand new Smith-Watkins London K2 cornet, an absolutely stunning horn ...................
Cheers |
+1
I bought a Watkins K2 London Cornet from Jack Kanstul about a year or so ago. (The K2 is actually made by Kanstul).
Over the years I have play-tested a lot of Cornets for BBB purposes. FOR ME for that BBB sound, the K2 tops them all.
My other Cornet is a middle eighties Bach 184ML Gold Brass Bell. Very excellent horn but FOR ME much harder to get a mouthpiece for it that makes it BBB sounding. If my memory serves me right, Louise had similar experiences with the 184.
Recently I had to go down in size on all my mouthpieces (reasons are age related physical "stuff" and not important here). So now I am using a Curry 10.5 BBC. It gives me the BBB sound I look for.
There was the other advantage. Dealing with Jack Kanstul is about one of the most pleasant experiences I have ever had.
I have bought several horns from Jack Kanstul including their famous 1525 Flugelhorn (I think TKSop suggested I try that Flugel. Thanks for that sugestion). THAT Flugel seems to play itself, so to speak.
Each Kanstul's horns have been a tremendous success for me.
I am also using Jack's modular pieces (as well as those made by James New). |
Hi Harry
Nice to see you on here again, and it was great to read such a positive post.
Yes, I had the same experience with my Bach 184ML cornet. Deeper mouthpieces seemed to darken it in a flugel rather than brass band cornet direction, owing to its different inherent sound to more typical British Brass Band cornets such as the Bessons, Yamahas, Smith Watkins K2 etc, hence my switch to a Yamaha Xeno.
Take care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Betelgeuse215 Veteran Member
Joined: 20 May 2015 Posts: 186
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Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 11:50 am Post subject: |
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I use a 3E. Darkest sound ever |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5461 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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Betelgeuse215 wrote: | I use a 3E. Darkest sound ever |
Hi Betelgeuse215
Sorry, 3E. from which manufacturer?
All the best
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Arbanator Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Oct 2008 Posts: 115 Location: McLean VA
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 4:24 am Post subject: |
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Pickett has a line of British brass band cornet mouthpieces designed, I think, with the help of the principal cornet in the Atlantic Brass Band, which frequently wins the Championship division at NABBA. They can provide an authentic sound but are much easier to play than the Wicks. |
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Dorazio41 New Member
Joined: 22 May 2018 Posts: 4
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:40 am Post subject: |
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Richard III wrote: | What kind of music do you want the cornet for? | i use my old yamaha cornet
& my new york bach 12 mouthpiece, in witch i play Dixie gigs, and straight ahead jazz, cornet always works for me playing in small clubs.the sound is very compact |
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