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Mouthpiece depth, range & resistance



 
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:36 am    Post subject: Mouthpiece depth, range & resistance Reply with quote

Curious. How many here find high range extension hampered by deeper C or D cup mouthpieces, & absolutely insist on using a shallow mouthpiece for lead playing. Also is breathiness, audible air hissing using A, B, even C cups a definitive indication that one simply requires a deep mouthpiece? (I do remember even Armando Ghitalla's sound was noticibly breathy close up, even audible on his solo recordings.So I guess it's not easy to remedy even for immortals!) I personally use a Yamaha 11E4 cornet mouthpiece with a DEG adapter & that's the shallowest mpc I can use without noticeable breathiness. (Maybe a Yamaha 11D4 if it existed!
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Played my highest note (in practice, during a lesson) on my largest mouthpiece but it is easier to keep it up on a smaller, shallower piece.

Listening up close, and generalizations about players, mouthpieces, or most anything else, is most likely folly.

Use what makes it easiest for you to get the sound you want.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A shallower mouthpiece will not increase your range capability but will make reaching your range marginally easier compared to a deeper mouthpiece assuming the shallower mouthpiece is providing more resistance than the deeper mouthpiece (which shallower cups, in and of themselves, are designed to do). You might be able to get the same result on a deeper mouthpiece by reducing the diameter of the drill hole.
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Over the years, I've found some surprising things (to me) about mouthpiece depth and range. For me, it's all about finding the mouthpiece that matches the horn. Using a deeper cup mouthpiece on my C trumpet actually makes the high register significantly easier for me than a shallow piece because it matches my horn better. My very deep flugel piece allows me to play in all registers better than a shallower one did. I think that the depth of the cup is one factor among many, and I think the best thing to do is find the mouthpiece that really matches your horn and figure it out from there.

But then again, I'm no high-note guy, I top out at an F or G over high C on a good day and I can't play super-shallow pieces. The principal benefit of shallow pieces, in my experience, is getting a bright, aggressive sizzle with less work.

Your mileage may vary!
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Shark01
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the guy that said it adds endurance so you can play more up-top notes. Of course, I bottom out on most shallow types so can't use them anyway.
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trumpet_cop
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Less cup = less work. Generally speaking, of course.

most folks who use large C cups or B cups have built up the chop strength and breath control to use them without issue.

Turkle is right on as well. Some mouthpiece work better with certain horns. I had a Warburton piece that would just SCREAM on a Bach 72 I had, but on my 37 or friend's 72LT it was just not the same. Similarly, the Yamaha Chicago works well with larger pieces because it's a bit tighter of a blow. Things need to balance
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I cant seem to make Bach style B cups work for beans. I use a 1C and get decent results, and have no issues range wise using deeper things. Just gets a little stuffy.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are playing efficiently, the mouthpiece cup depth should not matter, as long as you are playing the appropriate volume level for the cup depth. Meaning, I wouldn't play screaming lead trumpet or loud high note work with a 'B' cup mouthpiece. Granted, this can vary for different players depending on the amount of lip protrusion you use. I use very little lip intrusion, so a deep 'B' cup mouthpiece gives me quite a dark sound. But I prefer straight 'V' cups, like a medium-deep-to-deep straight V cup when I'm playing jazz or classical gigs, or commercial work that requires a dark sound. I find them to be much more efficient than deep bowl shape mouthpieces.

On the other hand, mouthpiece diameter plays a big factor in my range. As long as the mouthpiece is in the range of, say, .630 or smaller, I can play my full range on any depth mouthpiece. I can, and do, play from low F# to G above double C on my deepest flugel mouthpiece on jazz gigs when the rhythm section is soft enough. It's not a big deal as long as I don't try to 'overblow' the mouthpiece and try to play a cup depth in a way it isn't designed for. And I can easily switch to my Manley Lead3 (a very shallow straight V) or my Reeves 39EX/HV (a super-shallow flat-bottom bowl shape with a 30 throat.

I could get used to a bigger diameter piece, like a 3C, with practice, but I don't think I would ever have the power in the upper register or same endurance, since bigger diameters don't really fit my chops well (I'm a subscriber to the Storks' philosophy of mouthpiece selection).

So the advice I always give to students, and just playing colleagues who ask me about range and endurance, in regards to equipment is to check out the Storks' philosophy: http://storkcustom.com/doctor-mouthpiece/ and find a rim that fits your chops well. Then get a variety of underparts for the work you do. Also, if you do work where you need a dark sound but still want to go into the extreme upper register, I recommend medium-deep to deep straight V cup mouthpieces as I find them much more efficient and versatile. I think The Boss was onto something with that! All the best, Lex
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A prime example of playing the right diameter for your lip size and facial structure is Lynn Nicholson. He played an extremely big diameter mouthpiece and, even though it was shallow, he did serious damage to his chops and had several years where he had to take off the trumpet. Now he's back, better than ever, playing a mouthpiece diameter suitable to his lip/facial structure.
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Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
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Www.LexSamu.com
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don Herman rev2 wrote:
Played my highest note (in practice, during a lesson) on my largest mouthpiece but it is easier to keep it up on a smaller, shallower piece.

Listening up close, and generalizations about players, mouthpieces, or most anything else, is most likely folly.

Use what makes it easiest for you to get the sound you want.


Sound is one thing. I like the dark 11e4 sound. But range? The verdict on the trade offs isn't in.
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
A shallower mouthpiece will not increase your range capability but will make reaching your range marginally easier compared to a deeper mouthpiece assuming the shallower mouthpiece is providing more resistance than the deeper mouthpiece (which shallower cups, in and of themselves, are designed to do). You might be able to get the same result on a deeper mouthpiece by reducing the diameter of the drill hole.


My preferred mpc has a 4.2 mm throat. Nice round, dark sound. I wanna have my cake & eat it. The audible air resistance (using a shallow "lead trumpet" style mpc, can actually be heard access the room to the extent that listeners bring it up as a problem. . Not subtle. I can't rid myself of it by practice.
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turkle wrote:
Over the years, I've found some surprising things (to me) about mouthpiece depth and range. For me, it's all about finding the mouthpiece that matches the horn. Using a deeper cup mouthpiece on my C trumpet actually makes the high register significantly easier for me than a shallow piece because it matches my horn better. My very deep flugel piece allows me to play in all registers better than a shallower one did. I think that the depth of the cup is one factor among many, and I think the best thing to do is find the mouthpiece that really matches your horn and figure it out from there.

But then again, I'm no high-note guy, I top out at an F or G over high C on a good day and I can't play super-shallow pieces. The principal benefit of shallow pieces, in my experience, is getting a bright, aggressive sizzle with less work.

Your mileage may vary!


Yeah, my trumpet's a cute little rotary valve pocket trumpet that has about as much conicity coming out of the valve block as smsller belled pidthorns. It takes a teumpet mouthpiece & seems to crave a deep cornet mpc. I want to cap out at a reliable F above high C. The proprietary mouthpiece is very shallow w/a tiny throat & produces an aggressive, bright, surprisingly fat sound (because of all those extra high overtones). My issue with it (besides the sound of escaping air caused by back pressure) is that for what ever reason I can't go back to my deeper corne for a few ours.
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turkle wrote:
Over the years, I've found some surprising things (to me) about mouthpiece depth and range. For me, it's all about finding the mouthpiece that matches the horn. Using a deeper cup mouthpiece on my C trumpet actually makes the high register significantly easier for me than a shallow piece because it matches my horn better. My very deep flugel piece allows me to play in all registers better than a shallower one did. I think that the depth of the cup is one factor among many, and I think the best thing to do is find the mouthpiece that really matches your horn and figure it out from there.

But then again, I'm no high-note guy, I top out at an F or G over high C on a good day and I can't play super-shallow pieces. The principal benefit of shallow pieces, in my experience, is getting a bright, aggressive sizzle with less work.

Your mileage may vary!


Yeah, my trumpet's a cute little rotary valve pocket trumpet that has about as much conicity coming out of the valve block as smsller belled pidthorns. It takes a teumpet mouthpiece & seems to crave a deep cornet mpc. I want to cap out at a reliable F above high C. The proprietary mouthpiece is very shallow w/a tiny throat & produces an aggressive, bright, surprisingly fat sound (because of all those extra high overtones). My issue with it (besides the sound of escaping air caused by back pressure) is that for what ever reason I can't go back to my deeper corne for a few ours.
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ljazztrm wrote:
If you are playing efficiently, the mouthpiece cup depth should not matter, as long as you are playing the appropriate volume level for the cup depth. Meaning, I wouldn't play screaming lead trumpet or loud high note work with a 'B' cup mouthpiece. Granted, this can vary for different players depending on the amount of lip protrusion you use. I use very little lip intrusion, so a deep 'B' cup mouthpiece gives me quite a dark sound. But I prefer straight 'V' cups, like a medium-deep-to-deep straight V cup when I'm playing jazz or classical transcriptiinsrcial work that requires a dark sound. I find them to be much more efficient than deep bowl shape mouthpieces.

On the other hand, mouthpiece diameter plays a big factor in my range. As long as the mouthpiece is in the range of, say, .630 or smaller, I can play my full range on any depth mouthpiece. I can, and do, play from low F# to G above double C on my deepest flugel mouthpiece on jazz gigs when the rhythm section is soft enough. It's not a big deal as long as I don't try to 'overblow' the mouthpiece and try to play a cup depth in a way it isn't designed for. And I can easily switch to my Manley Lead3 (a very shallow straight V) or my Reeves 39EX/HV (a super-shallow flat-bottom bowl shape with a 30 throat.

I could get used to a bigger diameter piece, like a 3C, with practice, but I don't think I would ever have the power in the upper register or same endurance, since bigger diameters don't really fit my chops well (I'm a subscriber to the Storks' philosophy of mouthpiece selection).

So the advice I always give to students, and just playing colleagues who ask me about range and endurance, in regards to equipment is to check out the Storks' philosophy: http://storkcustom.com/doctor-mouthpiece/ and find a rim that fits your chops well. Then get a variety of underparts for the work you do. Also, if you do work where you need a dark sound but still want to go into the extreme upper register, I recommend medium-deep to deep straight V cup mouthpieces as I find them much more efficient and versatile. I think The Boss was onto something with that! All the best, Lex


Thank you. There's a philosophy about rim diameter being like a shoe size: one size being optimal. My experiences contradict that, as when I quit (playing at my very best!) I used a massive 17.5mm & deep cupped Bach # 1 mpc. My teacher urged me to experiment with wider rimmed Shilkies. But then I was shooting for a fat symphonic tone, & I don't remember striving to go above high C. Now my goal's a solid F (usually the limit of Miles Davis, Chet Baker & Fats Navarro transcriptiins) my mouthpieces must be smaller.

(As a comeback player I'm at a huge structural disadvantage.: Missing in both sides all my upper molars, & missing one-half of a premolar on my right side. After 5 minutes the cheeks can't hold back all if that back pressure & they puff out--& I can't play like Dizzy.

The problem will be fixed w/dentures, but in the meantime I am premptively looking for some insight regarding mouthpiece depth. Much of it does seem to be more endurance than actual range extention
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bassguy wrote:
Don Herman rev2 wrote:
Played my highest note (in practice, during a lesson) on my largest mouthpiece but it is easier to keep it up on a smaller, shallower piece.

Listening up close, and generalizations about players, mouthpieces, or most anything else, is most likely folly.

Use what makes it easiest for you to get the sound you want.


Sound is one thing. I like the dark 11e4 sound. But range? The verdict on the trade offs isn't in.


Guess it is for me, or maybe after 40+ years I've quit trying. For me, sound includes pitch, timing, tone, and all that goes with it, so it is pretty much the only thing I care about. My range (high G consistently, the double C above most nights) is good enough for what I play. No matter the mouthpiece (only slight differences from largest to smallest, probably as much mental as physical, but like I said I'll pick up my 7EW for a night of big band lead instead of a larger, deeper mouthpiece for orchestral or solo stuff).

YMMV - Don
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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sound, it is about getting the correct sound. If you can get a good lead sound that cuts through or rides on top of the band perfect. For me a deep mouthpiece does not get the sound I want. I have to work too hard on a deep mouthpiece to create the sound I have in my head when playing in a commercial setting. I also cannot play an extremely shallow mouthpiece. It does not work for me. I play a medium shallow Mouthpiece and like for Goldilocks it’s just right.

I have a deeper mouthpiece for occasions that I am not playing in a commercial setting. In church, orchestra, wind ensemble, brass ensemble or small group Jazz I want a different sound. Here again I don’t want to work hard to get it so I have a mouthpiece that helps me get the sound I want with less effort.

I do not think there is glory in playing a deep or small mouthpiece. I think that the results for effort and appropriate sound are important and the goal. I also do not think there is a reason to play only one mouthpiece for everything. Some will say consistency. Classical players use different mouthpieces in different keyed trumpets and deal with an even greater change in blow. These players seem to have figured out how to make this work and have determined there is a benefit to doing things this way.

Everyone is different and folks come to the the same results in different ways. Finding what works for you is far more important than being concerned how others will perceive your methods.

Best, Jon
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though I am not always happy with my lead style, I have sorted out range, endurance, tone, etc. For several years now I have been playing on a small diameter Wedge rim, a medium shallow cup, a #25 throat, and a Warburton KT backbore in Reeves sleeves. I mostly play lead in a jazz band and this MP matched to my Wild Thing gives me a lot of control over my sound. The sound is good to DHC on those few ocassions when I play it.

That said, the med shallow isn’t optimum in all settings. It’s hard to play much above a High C without a lead sound, and when I play soft my tones goes flugelly. That is great in the jazz band, but on those occasions when I play with the chamber orchestra I do better on my Flip Oaks “C” with a medium deep cup on the same rim with a slightly different backbore. I can get to nearly a G above High C without edge. The tone is full, round, and singing.

On the picc I like a med cup.

If I do decide to play the Bb WT in a non-jazz setting, I usually stay with the med shallow.
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