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I Think This May be All There Is........


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Pops
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anything CAN be learned.
I have a student that was about even with you in playing 12 years ago.
He sent me yesterdays practice in a facebook pm.

It was world class.
However; as I have said before on forums, it has to do with TIME.
He works 10-14 hours a day on trumpet.

He used to have a job and work 2 hours a day but as he started practicing more he started making money playing. So he finally quit his non-music job.

The way to know isn't what you can do today.
It is how much are you willing to put towards a goal and CAN put towards it.
Job, family... all take away from the time we CAN put towards it.

This goal takes more time than simple range extension. It can however be learned.

You almost said hobby as if that were a bad word.
Music is a great way to enhance the quality of your life and doing it as a hobby is wonderful and what most people end up doing. But realizing that you are going to keep it as a hobby isn't a reason to lose ground and give up the skills that you worked so hard for.

There is a certain amount of pride that you had the last time or so you posted. Don't lose that. You earned it.
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starkadder
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have tried every suggestion mentioned in this thread. It just ain't happening. I'm not really motivated anymore to keep putting in long hours to stay mediocre. Trumpet has stolen enough of my life already...............
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I recommend listing the Wild Thing in the Marketplace. Move on to something that responds to raw will power. A trumpet ain't it. Maybe golf?
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
I have tried every suggestion mentioned in this thread.


No, you haven't.

When I took the Myers-Briggs many years ago, I also was designated as a strong INTJ.

That is no longer the case. With the shift has come a multitude of new options in my life. And success in areas that I had never before thought possible.

Growth is the enemy of excessive pride in one's personality type. In my opinion, there is more available to you in the human experience than you are allowing.

If you are serious, you will find an exceptional teacher that can address your specific limitations, and address them in a way that is far beyond the level of advice offered on an open internet forum.

Good luck,

Jeff
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Pops nailed it. For me to get to the next level would take a LOT of time, much more than the 1-2 hours a day I have for trumpet. With that amount of practice time, I think this is all there is. I can maintain but not likely improve. I can be a lead player in a community jazz band and when I get the tunes worked I will sound okay. I’ll ocassonally take a section up an octave and play a high note at the end. I will in no way be a guy who can sub, improvise, or read well.

Jeff,

I am very much an INTJ and have always consistently tested very strong in those areas. With such strong traits in an oddly develevoped personality type, the best growth happens when I embrace who I am even though that is very non PC and out of sync with conventional wisdom. In the past I would ignore my strengths and work on my weaknesses, which only led to mediocrity.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

starkadder wrote:
ljazztrm wrote:
I can pretty much guarantee you playing jazz and that style of phrasing is really like riding a bike.. Once you get the 'knack' you don't ever forget it.. It just happens automatically. I've done some classical gigs in the past with some really top notch classical players and they have made the comment that they can tell I'm a jazz player when I phrase.. Obviously, I'm not trying to 'swing' my notes when playing a classical solo/brass quintet piece.. but, apparently, some really top notch classical players can tell anyway


You mean you play classical like this?


Link


Hey! That’s my boyhood idol you’re talking about! Although I really only appreciate classical music written from the late 1800’s up to the present day, if I had to listen to one recording of the Haydn, I think it really would be this one. Al really personalizes it:-) But let’s listen to Al doing what he does best!

Link

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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
Trumpet is indeed a "gladiator sport" for me..........as is EVERYTHING I do. That's just how INTJs roll. I am motivated by performing well at whatever the task, and enjoyment for me only comes from performing well................whether it was flying jets, racing cars, shooting in competitions, or making some business report more efficient and accurate.


Yo INTJ, you may want to experiment with the 'Self-Directed Attention exercise' found on this site: justonelook.org in the free ebook download. I think you would find it helps you focus more on cultivating all the positive aspects of being an INTJ even further, while sublimating the typical drawbacks. I’ve shared this exercise with students and other jazz-playing colleagues and they have been reporting success with it in their musical approach to playing. I am finding I can definitely get into that ‘zone’ more and more consistently when I am improvising.. Where I am just ‘watching/listening’ to myself and the music is just coming through me. All the best, Lex
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact that it bothers you means something.
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the responses. My challenge now is to find a way to become motivated since I know I have peaked. What motivated me in the past was the idea that I could continue to improve. As discussed here it is extremely unlikely that continuing to practice 1-2 hours a day will allow me to improve.

I’ll at least continue through to my concerts in June 1 and 2. After that it will be late September before before the band starts again. I don’t know if I’ll be back. Mediocrity is not motivating...........

That you all for letting me post this drivel here. Helps me think through it.....
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suggest you identify a narrow, specific goal for improv development. Don't worry about the big picture. A set of exercises from Abersold or Willey, or what have you. Learn x number of tunes in x number of keys each. Learn each major scale, starting and ending on each note in the scale, so 7 modes per scale: http://www.howmusicworks.org/804/Playing-with-Scales/Introducing-Scale-Modes

That way you'll have identifiable goals you can accomplish, that just happen to contribute to your desire to improv better.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
Thanks for all the responses. My challenge now is to find a way to become motivated since I know I have peaked. What motivated me in the past was the idea that I could continue to improve. As discussed here it is extremely unlikely that continuing to practice 1-2 hours a day will allow me to improve.

I’ll at least continue through to my concerts in June 1 and 2. After that it will be late September before before the band starts again. I don’t know if I’ll be back. Mediocrity is not motivating...........

That you all for letting me post this drivel here. Helps me think through it.....


Seems to me you lack the lust/desire/joy. Describing your dilemma as "drivel" is self condescending. And drivel. Playing should be fun - producing joy.
I have had pretty much the same problem - I know guys who seem to have incorporated that elusive "tripletfeeling", playing whatever tune in a swingy way as if this was totally natural. Hence I call them "naturals. They´ve got the "gift". No matter how hard I practiced this seemingly inborn feeling eluded me. There´s a paradox here: you can´t force yourself becoming spontaneous. The gift is an ability to indulge. Among other things.
When I was young, coming from the brass band to big band lead was difficult. I listened to all the records I had, used the lead sheets to play along and that helped a lot; playing with these naturals was also beneficial. However the result was still imitation.
You describe a session with your band after which there was a big silency. As I see it you, as a group entered "that cataleptic state of mind necessary for every artistic achivement of the highest degree" (Wagner quote). Meaning you all entered a hypnagogic state, meaning you all got syncronized, meaning you kinda lost yourself to/in the music, becoming spontaneous without trying. It sort of "happened by itself". That´s the state you dream about but fail to achieve - making you downright disappointed, almost kinda depressed "nothing will ever change this, I´m at the end of the line(rope)nothing left to aspire - sigh - I´ll give it all up".
You seem to be a very solid trumpeter, with a range I still dream of, but I fail to find the joy in your post(s). (Dreams are necessary - read mr Smileys post once more).
Maybe you should practice some meditation - making you accustomed to seemingly loose control! Get lost in a rock and roll/soul tune where indulgence is the main thing, not consciously playing every goddam note the most perfect way. Sing along with Aretha Franklin, Fats Domino, Otis Redding! Twist and shout!
So get lost!
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to beat the personality profile to death, part of the beauty of these inventories is that we can also learn from people who are different from us. It sounds like you are frustrated because on several areas you've been hammering away for twenty years you've stalled.

As a P, I recommend you consider other places where you might make progress. For instance:
-Work on teaching, since you have a lot to offer in this area and it appeals to your sense of order (and many of us introverts are great 1:1 or in small groups)
-Find a group you can tour with--get a change of scenery
-Transition the type of work you do (try more solo performance, put together a quartet, etc., etc.). I think you mentioned that some of the areas you're not great are sightreading and improv, so instead find a new way you can prepare and perform well.
-Find a local pub with an open mic night (this is something I plan to do in the next week or two).
-Instead of Jazz, try another style, maybe something in the folk/gospel/country realm, or in something else classical/contemporary. If Jazz is hitting your head on a wall, do something different. Or only play Jazz where you can control the environment.
-Double on another instrument (it can be very satisfying to get be a B-level player on another instrument, and may be easier than taking your A- on trumpet to a pure A). Or pick up a piccolo or flugelhorn.
-Volunteer with an organization helping them put on performances, fundraising concerts, etc.

In life all of us get stuck. You've no doubt heard that 'the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result.' I'd mix it up a little and find some areas where you can either make a strong contribution or play around with someone new. (I say this as someone with the opposite problem. I get excited about all of the possibilities and need to buckle down.)
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
As discussed here it is extremely unlikely that continuing to practice 1-2 hours a day will allow me to improve.


Hey INTJ, you might be surprised how much progress you can make spending a 1/2 hr a day transcribing, say, a Lee Morgan solo. Also, when transcribing, the time seems to FLY by..I guess because one is so focused down. There’s a program called ‘transcribe’ that has a free download trial period. It slows it down and keeps the same pitch. I don’t recommend writing it down, do it entirely by ear/memory and get to where you can play it along with the soloist. And, since you’ve built up a great deal of efficiency in your physical approach, you won’t get so tired doing it. I know a lot of jazz cats who haven’t learned the high efficiency it takes for extreme range/endurance and complain how tiring it is to transcribe..All the stopping and going, usually with the horn up to your face..repeating lines trying to get it down, etc.

Two solos I’m working on right now. It always surprises me when I’m on the gig and these licks and inflections just come out as I’m playing


Link



Link

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INTJ
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I talked to my jazz band director last night. He is from Brazil, has a doctorate from Colorado in jazz composition I think, has written several charts and recorded a couple albums including a very nice big band album. Check out Amizade - https://www.cassiovianna.com/listen . He recorded this with the
Colorado guys, and we have played it in our band as well.

Anyway, after rehearsal I began explaining how frustrated I was with my own lack of jazz feel. He got sort of a puzzled look and said he thought I sounded great and didn’t know what he’d do without me. I kind of took that with a grain of salt because it’s not like there is a huge talent pool in a small town.

We got to talking about style and wound up with me needing to learn to sing solos from jazz combo albums, while still applying my left brained approach to lead since leads HAS to be accurate. His thought—which is how he learned—is that by getting the jazz rhythms in my head via singing they will likely come out on the horn. The one he had me start with was a Louis Armstrong tune called hot something, where I noticed he sang a bunch of off beat 1/4 notes in perfect time.

Anyway, I might look at jazz style that way. Focusing on Rythm, as the link Denny sent me talks about. I know that 6-7 years with a pro trumpet player and excellent teacher didn’t get me what I needed in terms of jazz style, maybe this way will work—singing jazz rhythms.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
I talked to my jazz band director last night. He is from Brazil, has a doctorate from Colorado in jazz composition I think, has written several charts and recorded a couple albums including a very nice big band album. Check out Amizade - https://www.cassiovianna.com/listen . He recorded this with the
Colorado guys, and we have played it in our band as well.

Anyway, after rehearsal I began explaining how frustrated I was with my own lack of jazz feel. He got sort of a puzzled look and said he thought I sounded great and didn’t know what he’d do without me. I kind of took that with a grain of salt because it’s not like there is a huge talent pool in a small town.

We got to talking about style and wound up with me needing to learn to sing solos from jazz combo albums, while still applying my left brained approach to lead since leads HAS to be accurate. His thought—which is how he learned—is that by getting the jazz rhythms in my head via singing they will likely come out on the horn. The one he had me start with was a Louis Armstrong tune called hot something, where I noticed he sang a bunch of off beat 1/4 notes in perfect time.

Anyway, I might look at jazz style that way. Focusing on Rythm, as the link Denny sent me talks about. I know that 6-7 years with a pro trumpet player and excellent teacher didn’t get me what I needed in terms of jazz style, maybe this way will work—singing jazz rhythms.


I think learning to sing jazz rhythms is an excellent foundational approach to training yourself to hear it in that way so you can naturally play it on the horn in that way. The key is to learn to express it naturally, to express it as though that's the only way to express it. It's easier to drill this into yourself with your voice than it is with the horn because you've have had so much more practice using your voice to produce sound than you have with our horn. So training your voice to naturally produce the desired rhythms and then transitioning the same rhythms to the horn is a logical progression.
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starkadder
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does this mean I won't be getting a used Wild Thing at a reduced price?
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

starkadder wrote:
Does this mean I won't be getting a used Wild Thing at a reduced price?


I was never going to sell my WTs. I was evaluating if I should even try to improve as a lead player or perhaps move on to something else. It’s always been a time issue for me. I think developing the habit of singing classic jazz solos and even singing heads will allow me to increase practice time and improve without taking any more of my day.

I have developed to the point where what come out of the horn is what is in my head, good and bad.

That said, Flip has WTs for sale...............

Also, who and what do you guys recommend I listen to, with the focus being internalizing jazz rhythms?
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Denny Schreffler
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:59 pm    Post subject: Jazz Rhythms Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
...

Anyway, I might look at jazz style that way. Focusing on Rythm, as the link Denny sent me talks about. ...


I sent one of the Hal Galper videos to INTJ via PM. His use of the term "syncopation" would be interchangeable with what we've been discussing as "swing." It's useful with some students.

We don't gain fluency in a language by dissecting it, parsing it, analysing it, or transcribing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2XnB5G6oSc

Another particularly applicable one from Galper might be "the Illusion of an Instrument"

-Denny
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 10:45 pm    Post subject: Re: I Think This May be All There Is........ Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
I played as a kid in the 70s and failed because the way they tried to fix me killed all my range above the staff. I came back 17 years ago at age 41 and have since developed a strong upper range. I am an honest High G/A player for the length of my amateur endurance and have played DHCs in concerts. I play in tune and have a nice, full, resonant trumpet sound with a deep core. I have good control and flexibility.

I think that is as good as I can get. I suck at reading and improv; and even though I know how to play jazz correctly I often fail to do so. I just don’t know if I can get any better in these areas and have pretty much lost motivation to try. There are kids who started playing after I came back that can play better style than I.

I guess the final straw was the few lessons I have taken from a talented 29-30
year old kid. I thought I had already worked through developing a solid lead trumpet jazz style, but that is not the case. I just can’t seem to get the jazz style internalized. I can describe how a phrase should be played. Long notes, short notes, precise cutoffs, back tonguing, no space between certain notes, phrasing, et al. But it is hard for me to do it consistently when I play.

Probably the finest I have ever played was during a rehearsal immediately before a concert this past March. I was playing the lead/solo part of Keton’s Send In The Clowns and nailed it John Harner style. My community jazz band played especially well too and when we finished, we all just stayed silent for a few moments. I will never forget that.

So I can play big screaming ballads well, but in every other jazz style I am
mediocre. I can play screaming pop solos and charts well too......just not jazz.

At age 58 I just don’t think I am going to ever be good at jazz style. I think I can improve my reading a little. I can improv over pop changes ok (1-5-6-4) but who cares about that? Jazz improv will never likely be in reach for me.

I recently moved from a small town to a med town (with a university) an hour away and hoped to develop my skills to where I could be a guy they would call to come play at the many amateur events around here: churches, Christmas concerts, maybe sub for one of the local higher end community bands. However, I would not do so now even if asked because I am just not at that level and never will be. I think I have gone as far as a left-brained logical type can go on trumpet, and no, I would not trade ANY of my logic and analysis skills for a better feel with jazz.

I have actually started backing off my practice. Where I used to put in 2 hrs 6-7 days a week I now get 30-60 minutes 4-5 days a week. Seems like a waste to do any more when I am at my max level.

I will still play lead trumpet—and do my best to play correctiy—in the small town community jazz band an hour south of me, but that will be all I’m ever able to do trumpet wise. I will just be content with that and spend the rest of my hobby time doing something where I compete at a very high level.

Realize as a logical left-brained guy to me this post is just an honest analysis of where my trumpet playing is. I post all this without emotion. I guess I just wanted to see my own thought written down and see how it looked.......



You've done well. High G/A is commmendable range. Puts you probably at least in the top 3 to 5 percent. As for squeezing a few more notes out. Much of developing the Double C requires either a good understanding of the physics or a natural ability which automatically produces optimum physical advantage.

Regardless of what range limitation anyone has it seems to me that producing maximum range usually requires less effort in order to develop higher notes. Meaning if it truly kills you to blow a High G? You're pribably not gonna get the C above until that G comes more easily. So instead of focusing on making the Double C happen? Try making those notes between High C and G blow more easily. A better understanding of physics can help. I recommend the short video by Bill Moriarty over at the Roy Stevens tribute site. Moriarty is to high range trumpet sort of what Bill James is to baseballl and sabermetrics. People have ignored him and put him down but mostly just ignored him. However anyone who incorporates Moriarty's ideas is probably going to blow higher notes.

And making your upper register easier wili often be assisted by equipment choices. This means mouthpieces and to a lesser extent horn choice. Most trumpet players who blow lots of high notes well tend to choose shallower mouthpieces. In recent years I've switched to very shallow pieces for lead but with large throats and back-bores.

The huge throat on Maynard's piece was responsible for his big sound. I see no reason why the rest of us shouldn't profit from this simple idea. As an open #22 throat can make a customized Schilke 6A4a sound like a Bach 3C.

Maynard actually went as big as a #15 throat. Which rivals a trombone's mouthpiece throat. One urban legebd I heard from a noted lead player in the Navy Jazz band said that when Maynard was confronted with some nuisance heckler saying that the man "must be using a small bore mouthpiece"! ?

Well the story goes that Maynard took the lit cigarette out of the heckler's hand and dropped it straight through his mouthpiece. Just by gravity alone the coffin nail fell straight through to the ground below.

I can not testify to the exact truthfulness of the above tale. Other than it is true that it came from a respected source and it certainly is true that it is a story lol...
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel,

Range isn’t my concern. I can solidify above High A anytime I want simply by playing DHC, DHD, and up more times in my practice sessions. What I need is to have jazz rythm and style internalized. I began seriously working on jazz style in 2008 and focused hard on that until about 2014 with a very good teacher. Though I have improved my style nowhere near where it needs to be. Conversely, my range developed very nicely with help from Pops and a couple others.

That was brought to light very recently when I moved to a larger city and took a couple lessons from a very talented kid with a Masters, a DHC, and very strong jazz skills in both improv and lead. My lessons were demotivating because I hadn’t learned what I thought I had. I was making the same mistakes in style I made in 2008. Something has to change that doesn’t require 12 hours a day practice or I need to give up being a lead player.

I posted my thread in the High Range forum because this is where I hang out the most. Also, it’s where I am most likely to find perspective from accomplished lead players.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
INTJ wrote:
I talked to my jazz band director last night. He is from Brazil, has a doctorate from Colorado in jazz composition I think, has written several charts and recorded a couple albums including a very nice big band album. Check out Amizade - https://www.cassiovianna.com/listen . He recorded this with the
Colorado guys, and we have played it in our band as well.

Anyway, after rehearsal I began explaining how frustrated I was with my own lack of jazz feel. He got sort of a puzzled look and said he thought I sounded great and didn’t know what he’d do without me. I kind of took that with a grain of salt because it’s not like there is a huge talent pool in a small town.

We got to talking about style and wound up with me needing to learn to sing solos from jazz combo albums, while still applying my left brained approach to lead since leads HAS to be accurate. His thought—which is how he learned—is that by getting the jazz rhythms in my head via singing they will likely come out on the horn. The one he had me start with was a Louis Armstrong tune called hot something, where I noticed he sang a bunch of off beat 1/4 notes in perfect time.

Anyway, I might look at jazz style that way. Focusing on Rythm, as the link Denny sent me talks about. I know that 6-7 years with a pro trumpet player and excellent teacher didn’t get me what I needed in terms of jazz style, maybe this way will work—singing jazz rhythms.


I think learning to sing jazz rhythms is an excellent foundational approach to training yourself to hear it in that way so you can naturally play it on the horn in that way. The key is to learn to express it naturally, to express it as though that's the only way to express it. It's easier to drill this into yourself with your voice than it is with the horn because you've have had so much more practice using your voice to produce sound than you have with our horn. So training your voice to naturally produce the desired rhythms and then transitioning the same rhythms to the horn is a logical progression.


INTJ!
For some reason you seem to bypass advice like the above (and my own humble contribution). Instead you continue to beat yourself, sort of, always minimizing the praise you get. You seem to be dead serious in your strivings and to me this is kind of a paradox. Is it possible to be serious without adding dead? Where´s the joy? Strictness seem to reign.
Probably I´ve got only a fraction of your lead capacity, but I´m very very serious about my (lead/concertband ) playing - but - I do have a lot of fun. Rarely, sorry to say, the performances end up with that silence you so eloquently described. A silence in which the participants know that they have been part of something very very special, not really knowing what, ´cause the experience was recorded by the right hemisphere. In my 60 years as amateur not that often - but at times when we finally played the music, not just the printed score in front of us. As an amateur you often fight with the horn, the notes, you name it, not having incorporated/mastered the basic skills. You, on the other hand seem to have done that - hence you should be able to "free" yourself. From the harsh voice telling you, in the words I´ve picked up here on the TH: "I always thought I had to be perfect, but I´d hoped I´d be better than that"
So, in my opinion you should follow the advice of, say, Hermowiki, and your director. And not only jazz - look for the rhyhtm and blues, the soul music - a simple song as the old Blueberry Hill with Fats Domino - even the beginning phrases, the way he virtually embodies that triplet-feeling in a deceptively "lazy" way.
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