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Seymor B Fudd
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Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1469
Location: Sweden
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 Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 4:57 am Post subject: resist or not to resist? |
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So about a year ago I bought this Bach 1B Commercial, in mint condition. The purpose was to make easier filling my leadchair. It felt great, bigger, brighter sound than my old warhorse, the 1970 King Super 20 Symphony DB. Valves quicker, not that heavy to hold, many advantages.
I´ve been told better sound.
But - couple of months ago the valves needed "some help from a qualified repairman" (also a formidable tromboneplayer &bandleader) - in the meantime I re-assembled the old King. Only to find out that, even if the sound was not that "glorious" I could play with bigger accuracy, more often above high without blowing my brains out etc. Yes I know, I played on it almost 50 years. But I have´nt got the time needed to finally conquer the Bach. I need a quick fix....or at least a better cruch.
Made me think about this talk about M och ML. Yes I´ve posted thoughts about this topic before but here I am again.
Today I measured:
King a) main slide:11,50 mm Bach a)main slide 11,58 (inside diam)
b) third slide 11,39 b) third slide 11,35
c) Bell 121,66 c) Bell 127,32
as if these figures should make me understand better...
So the Bach is a lightweight construction whereas the King is not.
Judging from the discussions here on the TH there are a lot of parameters making direct comparisons difficult. Maybe no crucial differences. Pointing to the guy behind the horn.
In an earlier post I suggested maybe I should be better of with a horn with some resistance, more resistance than the Bach.
So finally - I´ve come to the conclusion that I should try to find a horn that resembles the King, although a new one.
Anyone out there having suggestions? I´m fully aware me being the crucial factor here but I just can´t get along with the Bach. It´s a lovely, fine horn, in the hands of someone more capable.
But - please some suggestions based on my points here!
_________________
Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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Richard III
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2655
Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 5:57 am Post subject: |
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Do a quality recording and tell us what you think of the sounds of both.
If you don't absolutely love the new horn sound, then why continue with it?
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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khedger
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 754
Location: Cambridge, MA
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 11:51 am Post subject: |
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I would be careful about getting too hung up on the tech specs of a horn. My first horn was a Holton MF horn, which I bought in the mid 70s. This was the horn that Maynard played. It was a great horn, but it was a large bore horn and it exhausted me to play it.
After trying a friends Benge 3x+ I was in love. I had tried Bachs which all felt very heavy to me and I couldn't really play them comfortably. The Benge just sang though, and I played Benges for years.
A few years ago I wanted to try something new. My Benge was getting worn and it was getting harder and harder to find them (I wouldn't use the post UMI horms). I was at Trent Austin's shop one day and he had laid out several horns for me to try. I didn't know what they were, I didn't know anything about their 'specs'.
I picked up one of the horns and it just sang for me. Very comfortable to play, slotted well, my range was there, it sounded good. Just a great match for me. Turned out to be a Flip Oakes 'Wild Thing'. It was a large bore horn and based on specs, something I probably wouldn't have even tried, but here I was with a horn that really worked for me. I bought it and had it for a long time.
So, yeah, specs can be interesting, and in some cases helpful, but it can also be quite helpful to just play the instruments and not worry too much about who made it or what the bore size is.
Interestingly, after buying the 'Wild Thing' I had occasion over the next couple of years to try out a couple of other 'Wild Things' - couldn't play them. Totally not right for me. |
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Andy Del
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2665
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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I suspect it has zero to o with the intrumentw and all abou ho we approach them. A familiar, known instrument, which has its own idiosyncrasies is something we tend to accommodate, usually to the detriment of our performance. An unknown instrument, we often approach with a far more pure stance, just getting the air in and going for it without the hangups.
Hence a better result so far.
So far...
Once the honeymoon is over, you'll have all the usual issues that the 'instrument has'. (Why else do I have so many axes?)
cheers
Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes... |
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Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1469
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| Andy Del wrote: | I suspect it has zero to o with the intrumentw and all abou ho we approach them. A familiar, known instrument, which has its own idiosyncrasies is something we tend to accommodate, usually to the detriment of our performance. An unknown instrument, we often approach with a far more pure stance, just getting the air in and going for it without the hangups.
Hence a better result so far.
So far...
Once the honeymoon is over, you'll have all the usual issues that the 'instrument has'. (Why else do I have so many axes?)
cheers
Andy |
So far I agree with you guys! Destillating my wordy post I think I´m hinting at some prescription for a horn that should be a modern variant of the King - specs as you suggest probably not that important but the same feeling. Sort of. It´s really weird, no matter how much I practice, there´s something about the Bach that makes the high register unfocused. Not so with the King. On the other hand I´ve a pro friend and he made the Bach sing, in fact sounded clearly better than on his Bach Artisan (new).
I´m the one responsible here, but aside from that I would love to buy my self a horn better suited to me - not having to adapt to it. Like falling in love with a Wild Thing.
In my case a Xeno? van Laar? Getzen Eterna? Or?? A pro horn of course (since I´m an amateur).
_________________
Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Mon May 28, 2018 1:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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cbtj51
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015
Posts: 725
Location: SE US
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| khedger wrote: | I would be careful about getting too hung up on the tech specs of a horn...
After trying a friends Benge 3x+ I was in love. I had tried Bachs which all felt very heavy to me and I couldn't really play them comfortably. The Benge just sang though, and I played Benges for years.
A few years ago I wanted to try something new. My Benge was getting worn and it was getting harder and harder to find them... I was at Trent Austin's shop one day and he had laid out several horns for me to try. I didn't know what they were, I didn't know anything about their 'specs'...
So, yeah, specs can be interesting, and in some cases helpful, but it can also be quite helpful to just play the instruments and not worry too much about who made it or what the bore size is.
. |
Similar story for me, but I didn't get the chance to try any NEW horns before my most recent Horn purchase, a Bach NY7. I played a lot of friends' horns (all makes and models) and did way too much research on line. Brick and mortar stores within a couple of hundred miles in any direction had very little to choose from, not like it was during my youth when I played at least a half dozen or so new horns from big inventories of Professional grade horns in local stores before taking the leap. Ahh, the good old days!!!
I finally decided on a new Bach NY7 (partly because of the 90 day return policy, but mostly from a lot of insight from players on TH and friends with many brands, years and specs of trumpets). I guess that I "lucked out" on a horn that shipped directly to me from Bach because there is NOTHING that I would change almost 2 years into playing it everyday. The Large Bore specs kinda scared me at first because I've always played ML, .460 horns, but turns out that the .462 LB really works for me on this particular horn. Could have been a disaster, but the 90 day return policy from Bach and a lot of feedback from many others who had hands on experience saved the day. Not recommending this approach to anyone, but this time it worked out fantastic, this is one time when YMMV is heavily loaded!!!
BTW everyone who has played my NY7, and there have been many, professionals and amateurs, has been blown away as well and either has bought one for themselves or recommended a NY7 to their students in the market for a new horn.
_________________
'71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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khedger
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 754
Location: Cambridge, MA
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| cbtj51 wrote: |
snip snip snip
Similar story for me, but I didn't get the chance to try any NEW horns before my most recent Horn purchase, a Bach NY7. I played a lot of friends' horns (all makes and models) and did way too much research on line. Brick and mortar stores within a couple of hundred miles in any direction had very little to choose from, not like it was during my youth when I played at least a half dozen or so new horns from big inventories of Professional grade horns in local stores before taking the leap. Ahh, the good old days!!!
I finally decided on a new Bach NY7 (partly because of the 90 day return policy, but mostly from a lot of insight from players on TH and friends with many brands, years and specs of trumpets). I guess that I "lucked out" on a horn that shipped directly to me from Bach because there is NOTHING that I would change almost 2 years into playing it everyday. The Large Bore specs kinda scared me at first because I've always played ML, .460 horns, but turns out that the .462 LB really works for me on this particular horn. Could have been a disaster, but the 90 day return policy from Bach and a lot of feedback from many others who had hands on experience saved the day. Not recommending this approach to anyone, but this time it worked out fantastic, this is one time when YMMV is heavily loaded!!!
BTW everyone who has played my NY7, and there have been many, professionals and amateurs, has been blown away as well and either has bought one for themselves or recommended a NY7 to their students in the market for a new horn. |
That .462 bore size is what a Benge 3x+ has, the horn I played for years. It's funny, I'm very uncomfortable with a Benge 3x (.460) but the + just sings for me.....I used to have a Benge CG and it was .464 I believe. I liked it a lot, but found myself getting tired out with it. Can these small bore size differences make THAT much difference? Yep, for some people.... |
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HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2581
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| khedger wrote: | | cbtj51 wrote: |
snip snip snip
Similar story for me, but I didn't get the chance to try any NEW horns before my most recent Horn purchase, a Bach NY7. I played a lot of friends' horns (all makes and models) and did way too much research on line. Brick and mortar stores within a couple of hundred miles in any direction had very little to choose from, not like it was during my youth when I played at least a half dozen or so new horns from big inventories of Professional grade horns in local stores before taking the leap. Ahh, the good old days!!!
I finally decided on a new Bach NY7 (partly because of the 90 day return policy, but mostly from a lot of insight from players on TH and friends with many brands, years and specs of trumpets). I guess that I "lucked out" on a horn that shipped directly to me from Bach because there is NOTHING that I would change almost 2 years into playing it everyday. The Large Bore specs kinda scared me at first because I've always played ML, .460 horns, but turns out that the .462 LB really works for me on this particular horn. Could have been a disaster, but the 90 day return policy from Bach and a lot of feedback from many others who had hands on experience saved the day. Not recommending this approach to anyone, but this time it worked out fantastic, this is one time when YMMV is heavily loaded!!!
BTW everyone who has played my NY7, and there have been many, professionals and amateurs, has been blown away as well and either has bought one for themselves or recommended a NY7 to their students in the market for a new horn. |
That .462 bore size is what a Benge 3x+ has, the horn I played for years. It's funny, I'm very uncomfortable with a Benge 3x (.460) but the + just sings for me.....I used to have a Benge CG and it was .464 I believe. I liked it a lot, but found myself getting tired out with it. Can these small bore size differences make THAT much difference? Yep, for some people.... |
Just clearing up any confusion: The Benge MLP+ (which is the 2X+ and 3X+) is a .464 bore. The CG is a .468 bore with .464 choke where the bell enters the first valve casing.
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HERMOKIWI |
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Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1469
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | | khedger wrote: | | cbtj51 wrote: |
snip snip snip
Similar story for me, but I didn't get the chance to try any NEW horns before my most recent Horn purchase, a Bach NY7. I played a lot of friends' horns (all makes and models) and did way too much research on line. Brick and mortar stores within a couple of hundred miles in any direction had very little to choose from, not like it was during my youth when I played at least a half dozen or so new horns from big inventories of Professional grade horns in local stores before taking the leap. Ahh, the good old days!!!
I finally decided on a new Bach NY7 (partly because of the 90 day return policy, but mostly from a lot of insight from players on TH and friends with many brands, years and specs of trumpets). I guess that I "lucked out" on a horn that shipped directly to me from Bach because there is NOTHING that I would change almost 2 years into playing it everyday. The Large Bore specs kinda scared me at first because I've always played ML, .460 horns, but turns out that the .462 LB really works for me on this particular horn. Could have been a disaster, but the 90 day return policy from Bach and a lot of feedback from many others who had hands on experience saved the day. Not recommending this approach to anyone, but this time it worked out fantastic, this is one time when YMMV is heavily loaded!!!
BTW everyone who has played my NY7, and there have been many, professionals and amateurs, has been blown away as well and either has bought one for themselves or recommended a NY7 to their students in the market for a new horn. |
That .462 bore size is what a Benge 3x+ has, the horn I played for years. It's funny, I'm very uncomfortable with a Benge 3x (.460) but the + just sings for me.....I used to have a Benge CG and it was .464 I believe. I liked it a lot, but found myself getting tired out with it. Can these small bore size differences make THAT much difference? Yep, for some people.... |
Just clearing up any confusion: The Benge MLP+ (which is the 2X+ and 3X+) is a .464 bore. The CG is a .468 bore with .464 choke where the bell enters the first valve casing. |
'
So specs doesn´t tell the whole story....The unique combination of this one player, that one horn and then we have to navigate the mouthpiece swamp. I´ve found my mpc!  
Maybe the Bachs are not for me? Once (written about that in other posts) I bought an exquisite Bach Stradivarius cornet (L bore) but couldn´t fill it, on the other hand I had no problems with the old Getzen Eterna, large bore, or today with the Getzten 3850, large bore.
Probably anecdotal evidence and just personal.
Boils down to the feeling - so again what horn of today could give me that King feeling???
_________________
Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| Seymor B Fudd wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | | khedger wrote: | | cbtj51 wrote: |
snip snip snip
Similar story for me, but I didn't get the chance to try any NEW horns before my most recent Horn purchase, a Bach NY7. I played a lot of friends' horns (all makes and models) and did way too much research on line. Brick and mortar stores within a couple of hundred miles in any direction had very little to choose from, not like it was during my youth when I played at least a half dozen or so new horns from big inventories of Professional grade horns in local stores before taking the leap. Ahh, the good old days!!!
I finally decided on a new Bach NY7 (partly because of the 90 day return policy, but mostly from a lot of insight from players on TH and friends with many brands, years and specs of trumpets). I guess that I "lucked out" on a horn that shipped directly to me from Bach because there is NOTHING that I would change almost 2 years into playing it everyday. The Large Bore specs kinda scared me at first because I've always played ML, .460 horns, but turns out that the .462 LB really works for me on this particular horn. Could have been a disaster, but the 90 day return policy from Bach and a lot of feedback from many others who had hands on experience saved the day. Not recommending this approach to anyone, but this time it worked out fantastic, this is one time when YMMV is heavily loaded!!!
BTW everyone who has played my NY7, and there have been many, professionals and amateurs, has been blown away as well and either has bought one for themselves or recommended a NY7 to their students in the market for a new horn. |
That .462 bore size is what a Benge 3x+ has, the horn I played for years. It's funny, I'm very uncomfortable with a Benge 3x (.460) but the + just sings for me.....I used to have a Benge CG and it was .464 I believe. I liked it a lot, but found myself getting tired out with it. Can these small bore size differences make THAT much difference? Yep, for some people.... |
Just clearing up any confusion: The Benge MLP+ (which is the 2X+ and 3X+) is a .464 bore. The CG is a .468 bore with .464 choke where the bell enters the first valve casing. |
'
So specs doesn´t tell the whole story.... Once (written about that in other posts) I bought an exquisite Bach Stradivarius cornet (L bore) but couldn´t fill it, on the other hand I had no problems with the old Getzen Eterna, large bore, or today with the Getzten 3850, large bore.
Probably anecdotal evidence and just personal.
Boils down to the feeling - so again what horn of today could give me that King feeling??? |
I’m as much a gearhead as many people here, but I absolutely agree that specs are not necessarily an indication of what might work or not work for an individual. Especially when it comes to bore size, I think Schilke had some very valid points, you might find this interesting, if you haven’t seen it:
https://everythingtrumpet.com/schilke/B_flat_trumpets.html
Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1469
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | | Seymor B Fudd wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | | khedger wrote: | | cbtj51 wrote: |
snip snip snip
Similar story for me, but I didn't get the chance to try any NEW horns before my most recent Horn purchase, a Bach NY7. I played a lot of friends' horns (all makes and models) and did way too much research on line. Brick and mortar stores within a couple of hundred miles in any direction had very little to choose from, not like it was during my youth when I played at least a half dozen or so new horns from big inventories of Professional grade horns in local stores before taking the leap. Ahh, the good old days!!!
I finally decided on a new Bach NY7 (partly because of the 90 day return policy, but mostly from a lot of insight from players on TH and friends with many brands, years and specs of trumpets). I guess that I "lucked out" on a horn that shipped directly to me from Bach because there is NOTHING that I would change almost 2 years into playing it everyday. The Large Bore specs kinda scared me at first because I've always played ML, .460 horns, but turns out that the .462 LB really works for me on this particular horn. Could have been a disaster, but the 90 day return policy from Bach and a lot of feedback from many others who had hands on experience saved the day. Not recommending this approach to anyone, but this time it worked out fantastic, this is one time when YMMV is heavily loaded!!!
BTW everyone who has played my NY7, and there have been many, professionals and amateurs, has been blown away as well and either has bought one for themselves or recommended a NY7 to their students in the market for a new horn. |
That .462 bore size is what a Benge 3x+ has, the horn I played for years. It's funny, I'm very uncomfortable with a Benge 3x (.460) but the + just sings for me.....I used to have a Benge CG and it was .464 I believe. I liked it a lot, but found myself getting tired out with it. Can these small bore size differences make THAT much difference? Yep, for some people.... |
Just clearing up any confusion: The Benge MLP+ (which is the 2X+ and 3X+) is a .464 bore. The CG is a .468 bore with .464 choke where the bell enters the first valve casing. |
'
So specs doesn´t tell the whole story.... Once (written about that in other posts) I bought an exquisite Bach Stradivarius cornet (L bore) but couldn´t fill it, on the other hand I had no problems with the old Getzen Eterna, large bore, or today with the Getzten 3850, large bore.
Probably anecdotal evidence and just personal.
Boils down to the feeling - so again what horn of today could give me that King feeling??? |
I’m as much a gearhead as many people here, but I absolutely agree that specs are not necessarily an indication of what might work or not work for an individual. Especially when it comes to bore size, I think Schilke had some very valid points, you might find this interesting, if you haven’t seen it:
https://everythingtrumpet.com/schilke/B_flat_trumpets.html
Brad |
Thanks a lot! Interesting stuff. And "an amazing number of variables, including the size of one's oral cavity, the size and shape of the lip aperture, mouthpiece pressure, lip compression, lip curl, tongue arch, corner tension, the mouthpiece cup diameter, shape, depth and volume, the mouthpiece bore size, the size and shape of the backbore, the gap between mouthpiece and leadpipe, the taper of the leadpipe, the weight of the materials, the shape of the tuning slide, the location and weight of the bracing, the number of braces, the bore size of the trumpet, and so forth. ". Quote! Sigh!  Normally I´ve no problems choosing the best toothpaste....
Me just wanting to get myself a modern trumpet that makes the most of my (meagre) musical talents. Originally I chose my King amongst a lot of pro-horns, at the time (1970) so obviously I found it very fitting.
Descriptions like "solid core/very opaque/dense" seems to characterize my old King. I could add "focussed" sound, with a bite. Do you fellows of the King´s guard think the same? And if you ever were to get yourselfs a new trumpet - which one (or witch 2)?
_________________
Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| Seymor B Fudd wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | Seymor B Fudd wrote: | | HERMOKIWI wrote: | | khedger wrote: | | cbtj51 wrote: |
snip snip snip
Similar story for me, but I didn't get the chance to try any NEW horns before my most recent Horn purchase, a Bach NY7. I played a lot of friends' horns (all makes and models) and did way too much research on line. Brick and mortar stores within a couple of hundred miles in any direction had very little to choose from, not like it was during my youth when I played at least a half dozen or so new horns from big inventories of Professional grade horns in local stores before taking the leap. Ahh, the good old days!!!
I finally decided on a new Bach NY7 (partly because of the 90 day return policy, but mostly from a lot of insight from players on TH and friends with many brands, years and specs of trumpets). I guess that I "lucked out" on a horn that shipped directly to me from Bach because there is NOTHING that I would change almost 2 years into playing it everyday. The Large Bore specs kinda scared me at first because I've always played ML, .460 horns, but turns out that the .462 LB really works for me on this particular horn. Could have been a disaster, but the 90 day return policy from Bach and a lot of feedback from many others who had hands on experience saved the day. Not recommending this approach to anyone, but this time it worked out fantastic, this is one time when YMMV is heavily loaded!!!
BTW everyone who has played my NY7, and there have been many, professionals and amateurs, has been blown away as well and either has bought one for themselves or recommended a NY7 to their students in the market for a new horn. |
That .462 bore size is what a Benge 3x+ has, the horn I played for years. It's funny, I'm very uncomfortable with a Benge 3x (.460) but the + just sings for me.....I used to have a Benge CG and it was .464 I believe. I liked it a lot, but found myself getting tired out with it. Can these small bore size differences make THAT much difference? Yep, for some people.... |
Just clearing up any confusion: The Benge MLP+ (which is the 2X+ and 3X+) is a .464 bore. The CG is a .468 bore with .464 choke where the bell enters the first valve casing. |
'
So specs doesn´t tell the whole story.... Once (written about that in other posts) I bought an exquisite Bach Stradivarius cornet (L bore) but couldn´t fill it, on the other hand I had no problems with the old Getzen Eterna, large bore, or today with the Getzten 3850, large bore.
Probably anecdotal evidence and just personal.
Boils down to the feeling - so again what horn of today could give me that King feeling??? |
I’m as much a gearhead as many people here, but I absolutely agree that specs are not necessarily an indication of what might work or not work for an individual. Especially when it comes to bore size, I think Schilke had some very valid points, you might find this interesting, if you haven’t seen it:
https://everythingtrumpet.com/schilke/B_flat_trumpets.html
Brad |
Thanks a lot! Interesting stuff. And "an amazing number of variables, including the size of one's oral cavity, the size and shape of the lip aperture, mouthpiece pressure, lip compression, lip curl, tongue arch, corner tension, the mouthpiece cup diameter, shape, depth and volume, the mouthpiece bore size, the size and shape of the backbore, the gap between mouthpiece and leadpipe, the taper of the leadpipe, the weight of the materials, the shape of the tuning slide, the location and weight of the bracing, the number of braces, the bore size of the trumpet, and so forth. ". Quote! Sigh! Normally I´ve no problems choosing the best toothpaste....
Me just wanting to get myself a modern trumpet that makes the most of my (meagre) musical talents. Originally I chose my King amongst a lot of pro-horns, at the time (1970) so obviously I found it very fitting.
Descriptions like "solid core/very opaque/dense" seems to characterize my old King. I could add "focussed" sound, with a bite. Do you fellows of the King´s guard think the same? And if you ever were to get yourselfs a new trumpet - which one (or witch 2)? |
Your last sentence: presently, for me and what I do and taking into consideration what I now use and have, for “new”, I would seriously the consider Bach Commercial large bore (recently played one), and the Burbank CG that is being sold by Michael Thomas.
Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1469
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:14 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Brad361"][quote="Seymor B Fudd"][quote="Brad361"][quote="Seymor B Fudd"][quote="HERMOKIWI"][quote="khedger"][quote="cbtj51"]
So you think a Bach Commercial Large bore would do it!? The Commercial I have is ML. In what way (which ways) would a L bore differ?
The Burbanks are not available over here (unless I order one from the US) - in any case I will have to play one to compare. Seemingly too complicated. Reading about Burbanks, and Brian D:s article is interesting, a deeper story of horn making - I´ve read it in one of Brian´s posts.
Horns reasonably easy to get hold of over here are: Yamaha, van Laar, B&S,
Bach, Jupiter, Schmelzer, Scherzer(only rotary valves), Cannonball, Schilke, XO ( R.Ingram-I´ve tested this one, finding it a bit stuffy and "tinny").
_________________
Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 1:14 am Post subject: Re: resist or not to resist? |
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| Seymor B Fudd wrote: | So about a year ago I bought this Bach 1B Commercial, in mint condition. The purpose was to make easier filling my leadchair. It felt great, bigger, brighter sound than my old warhorse, the 1970 King Super 20 Symphony DB. Valves quicker, not that heavy to hold, many advantages.
I´ve been told better sound.
But - couple of months ago the valves needed "some help from a qualified repairman" (also a formidable tromboneplayer &bandleader) - in the meantime I re-assembled the old King. Only to find out that, even if the sound was not that "glorious" I could play with bigger accuracy, more often above high without blowing my brains out etc. Yes I know, I played on it almost 50 years. But I have´nt got the time needed to finally conquer the Bach. I need a quick fix....or at least a better cruch.
Made me think about this talk about M och ML. Yes I´ve posted thoughts about this topic before but here I am again.
Today I measured:
King a) main slide:11,50 mm Bach a)main slide 11,58 (inside diam)
b) third slide 11,39 b) third slide 11,35
c) Bell 121,66 c) Bell 127,32
as if these figures should make me understand better...
So the Bach is a lightweight construction whereas the King is not.
Judging from the discussions here on the TH there are a lot of parameters making direct comparisons difficult. Maybe no crucial differences. Pointing to the guy behind the horn.
In an earlier post I suggested maybe I should be better of with a horn with some resistance, more resistance than the Bach.
So finally - I´ve come to the conclusion that I should try to find a horn that resembles the King, although a new one.
Anyone out there having suggestions? I´m fully aware me being the crucial factor here but I just can´t get along with the Bach. It´s a lovely, fine horn, in the hands of someone more capable.
But - please some suggestions based on my points here! |
Hi Seymor
Have you dialled in your mouthpiece gap on your Bach 1B Commerical?
If you haven't, I think that this would be worth a try before you look for another trumpet. Decreasing the gap has made a huge difference to my Xeno II.
All the best
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2441
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 6:03 am Post subject: |
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The differences between a Super-20 Symphony and a Bach 1B are staggering. Bore is perhaps the least significant. Resistance and response are two separate issues, though in these posts they seem to get co-mingled a lot.
The bottom line is that you are playing in the high register easier with the King, and that you are playing more accurately with the King. The second matter is most likely one of familiarity as you have already identified and should change with time. The first however is more a matter of your suitability for that horn (I like to express it that way, since most view it as the horn's suitability for you).
Clearer, or perhaps brighter tone, crisp valves, less mass to hold (and to excite to resonance), are all nice features, but perhaps the 1B is not the right horn for you. A more familiar feeling transition might be a lightweight 72, though the extreme difference in mass is probably part of why its harder to be precise right now. "squirrely" is how some feel that transition works out.
There are a lot of options out there, and the best thing to do is to try them. I personally would recommend trying the brighter/lighter end of the line-up at Austin Winds - but you will have to go to ITG this week, or visit Austin to do so. Their horns all have rich core and at times darker tone - much like a Symphony, but will push to be more crystal and definitely project with ease. As a King Symphony player of many years, you might find the feel of their Stage 470, or even the Stage 466 I play, very familiar - the Stage 470 will give you a little more of that brighter, clearer tone when you play it that way though, so it is probably more suited to your lead parts (which is what it is designed for).
Kanstul also makes a number of options including the 1001 that might be well suited to what you are looking for, though like a Benge, the lack of core may feel a bit thin to you after so many years on a dark horn like a Symphony. I'ld also steer clear of the 15XX and 16XX line, given how the Bach was a poor fit.
Of course, there is a lot to be said for a 1950s Olds Studio with rebuilt valves too.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1469
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 6:07 am Post subject: Re: resist or not to resist? |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | | Seymor B Fudd wrote: | So about a year ago I bought this Bach 1B Commercial, in mint condition. The purpose was to make easier filling my leadchair. It felt great, bigger, brighter sound than my old warhorse, the 1970 King Super 20 Symphony DB. Valves quicker, not that heavy to hold, many advantages.
I´ve been told better sound.
But - couple of months ago the valves needed "some help from a qualified repairman" (also a formidable tromboneplayer &bandleader) - in the meantime I re-assembled the old King. Only to find out that, even if the sound was not that "glorious" I could play with bigger accuracy, more often above high without blowing my brains out etc. Yes I know, I played on it almost 50 years. But I have´nt got the time needed to finally conquer the Bach. I need a quick fix....or at least a better cruch.
Made me think about this talk about M och ML. Yes I´ve posted thoughts about this topic before but here I am again.
Today I measured:
King a) main slide:11,50 mm Bach a)main slide 11,58 (inside diam)
b) third slide 11,39 b) third slide 11,35
c) Bell 121,66 c) Bell 127,32
as if these figures should make me understand better...
So the Bach is a lightweight construction whereas the King is not.
Judging from the discussions here on the TH there are a lot of parameters making direct comparisons difficult. Maybe no crucial differences. Pointing to the guy behind the horn.
In an earlier post I suggested maybe I should be better of with a horn with some resistance, more resistance than the Bach.
So finally - I´ve come to the conclusion that I should try to find a horn that resembles the King, although a new one.
Anyone out there having suggestions? I´m fully aware me being the crucial factor here but I just can´t get along with the Bach. It´s a lovely, fine horn, in the hands of someone more capable.
But - please some suggestions based on my points here! |
Hi Seymor
Have you dialled in your mouthpiece gap on your Bach 1B Commerical?
If you haven't, I think that this would be worth a try before you look for another trumpet. Decreasing the gap has made a huge difference to my Xeno II.
All the best
Lou |
Hi Louise!
Thanks for the input. Consequently I pulled out my electronic vernier caliper and measured - only to get surprised:
King gap: 13,99 mm
Bach gap: 4,85mm!
Now I have to confess: these figures mean nothing to me so please explain the significance of this difference!
Personally I find the King more precise/accurate above Bb; Sound quality: Bach brighter, more easy to fill (=less resistance) up to G on the staff
A pro friend told me the King sounds "tinny" in comparison - not my own idea though.
The mouthpiece is a Stork VM6 - constituting end of Safari.
_________________
Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: resist or not to resist? |
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| Seymor B Fudd wrote: |
Hi Louise!
Hi Seymor
Thanks for the input.
You are very welcome.
Consequently I pulled out my electronic vernier caliper and measured - only to get surprised:
King gap: 13,99 mm
Bach gap: 4,85mm!
Now I have to confess: these figures mean nothing to me so please explain the significance of this difference!
Firstly if I remember correctly, I have read somewhere about Bach commercial trumpets having a larger gap than the 1/8" gap that is generally considered optimum for a Bach Strad. If I have even remembered the right model of trumpet, I am not sure whether this larger than 1/8" gap is deliberate and part of the design specifications or has turned out this way by accident. I think that this is worth ascertaining.
1/8" is equivalent to 3.175mm, so your Bach gap of 4.85mm is definitely larger.
Regarding your King having a gap of 13.99mm, if this is not a typo, this is unlikely, and you may have gotten this measurement owing to your King trumpet having the kind of leadpipe/mouthpiece receiver arrangement where there is no actual gap. Using a toothpick, can you feel the top of the leadpipe as a ledge inside the mouthpiece receiver? If not, it maybe that the mouthpiece receiver transitions into the leadpipe with no ledge at the top of the leadpipe, and hence there can be no actual gap. My 1950s Boosey and Hawkes trumpet this arrangement, as do a lot of short model cornets.
Whether or not there is an actual gap, varying the insertion amount of the mouthpiece has the same effect, but just in my opinion to a lesser degree when there is not an actual gap.
I'm no expert in gap, but this is how I understand it. Bob Reeves uses a stretched and compressed spring to represent a large and small gap:
http://www.bobreeves.com/products/gap.htm
In my mind, I instead see it as a stair case (I'm not criticizing Bob Reeves, I just personally find it easier to visualise it as a stair case). With a larger gap, the staircase starts on the ground floor, and finishes on the 1st floor (I'm not sure whether the first upper storey is referred to the 1st floor in the US, but it is in the UK, with the bottom storey being the ground floor), with lets say ten tall/deep steps in between. With a smaller gap, I see the same staircase with the same ten steps, but this time the steps are shorter and shallower, resulting in the bottom step floating above the ground floor and the top step not reaching the 1st floor.
In my mind, this is a diagrammatic representation of what happens when you decrease the gap, which is that the octaves compress, making the lower octave sharper and upper octave flatter, and the slots become narrower, making them closer together and hence in my opinion the trumpet more flexible. Decreasing the gap also decreases the level of blow resistance, giving a more open feel. To me the combined affect of a smaller gap is a more open and flexible trumpet. Maybe it is just me, but in particular I feel that decreasing the gap particularly opens up the upper register. In my opinion there is a sweet spot, which depending on the trumpet is either a very narrow gap range like on my Xeno II and B&H Oxford trumpets, which suddenly become alive and sing with a gap around 25mm, achieved via a James R New 6.5 sleeve, or a wider gap range, like on my Bach 37, which plays well with a gap between 24mm and 25mm, with my preference in the middle at around 24.5mm.
Personally I find the King more precise/accurate above Bb;
It is difficult to ascertain as we are all different and all trumpets play differently, but more precise/accurate in the upper register probably equates to wider more defined slots, like you get with a larger mouthpiece gap/lesser insertion amount.
If it is not a typo and your King gap truly seems that large, I'd suggest instead comparing mouthpiece insertion amounts, to see whether your mouthpiece inserts less far into the receiver of your King trumpet.
Sound quality: Bach brighter, more easy to fill (=less resistance) up to G on the staff
I'm not sure whether I would particularly equate easier to fill as meaning less resistance, probably the reverse, but I am not playing your trumpet, and it is difficult to explain resistance in terms of words.
A pro friend told me the King sounds "tinny" in comparison - not my own idea though.
In all honesty, I think that the King and Bach Commerical are inherently too different to compare in terms of mouthpiece gap alone, and that it would be better to dial in your mouthpiece gap on each individually, then compare them to each other, knowing that you are comparing both with the best mouthpiece gap for you on that particular trumpet.
Obviously it is up to you, but I would not think of changing a trumpet, until I had dialled in the mouthpiece gap. My first impression of my Xeno II when trialled with my Bach 3C which inserts 24mm, was stuffy to blow, even sounded a little stuffy in my opinion, with a difficult upper register, and very defined slots. Stuffy and rigid slotting would be how I would describe it, and I nearly returned it. I then measured the insertion amount of the supplied Yamaha 16C4 mouthpiece, and it inserted 1mm more at 25mm. I had a sleeved copy of my Bach 3C, which just happened to insert 25mm, and the trumpet came alive. I later experimented with Jim New's gap modulator and couldn't improve on a 25mm insertion amount, which I now achieve via a James R New 6.5 sleeve. With this gap, this trumpet has a nice fairly open blow and sufficiently defined slotting, and plays extremely well for me.
The mouthpiece is a Stork VM6 - constituting end of Safari.
I've never played a Stork mouthpiece, but presume that they are reasonably priced, readily available, and consistent from one example to another. If so, my suggestion would be to buy another one, have it cut for sleeves and experiment with gap.
I hope that this will help.
All the best
Lou
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_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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tptguy
Jerome Callet Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3380
Location: Philadelphia, Pa
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| The Super 20 evolved out of the King Liberty, an all-time great horn. The Callet Sima and Callet NY Soloist also evolved out of the King Liberty - great modern horns with the Liberty's power, focus, and tone. Be sure to try these two Callets. |
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so what
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2004
Posts: 617
Location: near Dallas
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: resist or not to resist? |
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| Seymor B Fudd wrote: | | ..... my old warhorse, the 1970 King Super 20 Symphony DB....... |
Hey Seymor,
If I was looking for a trumpet that had the best features of the King Super 20 DB, I would certainly ask Tony Scodwell about it. I think he knows those horns very well, and I hear he makes really fine playing horns. I bet anything that he could make you happy.
-Mark Walberg |
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Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1469
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 4:49 am Post subject: Re: resist or not to resist? |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | | Seymor B Fudd wrote: |
Hi Louise!
Hi Seymor
Thanks for the input.
You are very welcome.
Consequently I pulled out my electronic vernier caliper and measured - only to get surprised:
King gap: 13,99 mm
Bach gap: 4,85mm!
Now I have to confess: these figures mean nothing to me so please explain the significance of this difference!
Firstly if I remember correctly, I have read somewhere about Bach commercial trumpets having a larger gap than the 1/8" gap that is generally considered optimum for a Bach Strad. If I have even remembered the right model of trumpet, I am not sure whether this larger than 1/8" gap is deliberate and part of the design specifications or has turned out this way by accident. I think that this is worth ascertaining.
1/8" is equivalent to 3.175mm, so your Bach gap of 4.85mm is definitely larger.
Regarding your King having a gap of 13.99mm, if this is not a typo, this is unlikely, and you may have gotten this measurement owing to your King trumpet having the kind of leadpipe/mouthpiece receiver arrangement where there is no actual gap. Using a toothpick, can you feel the top of the leadpipe as a ledge inside the mouthpiece receiver? If not, it maybe that the mouthpiece receiver transitions into the leadpipe with no ledge at the top of the leadpipe, and hence there can be no actual gap. My 1950s Boosey and Hawkes trumpet this arrangement, as do a lot of short model cornets.
Whether or not there is an actual gap, varying the insertion amount of the mouthpiece has the same effect, but just in my opinion to a lesser degree when there is not an actual gap.
I'm no expert in gap, but this is how I understand it. Bob Reeves uses a stretched and compressed spring to represent a large and small gap:
http://www.bobreeves.com/products/gap.htm
In my mind, I instead see it as a stair case (I'm not criticizing Bob Reeves, I just personally find it easier to visualise it as a stair case). With a larger gap, the staircase starts on the ground floor, and finishes on the 1st floor (I'm not sure whether the first upper storey is referred to the 1st floor in the US, but it is in the UK, with the bottom storey being the ground floor), with lets say ten tall/deep steps in between. With a smaller gap, I see the same staircase with the same ten steps, but this time the steps are shorter and shallower, resulting in the bottom step floating above the ground floor and the top step not reaching the 1st floor.
In my mind, this is a diagrammatic representation of what happens when you decrease the gap, which is that the octaves compress, making the lower octave sharper and upper octave flatter, and the slots become narrower, making them closer together and hence in my opinion the trumpet more flexible. Decreasing the gap also decreases the level of blow resistance, giving a more open feel. To me the combined affect of a smaller gap is a more open and flexible trumpet. Maybe it is just me, but in particular I feel that decreasing the gap particularly opens up the upper register. In my opinion there is a sweet spot, which depending on the trumpet is either a very narrow gap range like on my Xeno II and B&H Oxford trumpets, which suddenly become alive and sing with a gap around 25mm, achieved via a James R New 6.5 sleeve, or a wider gap range, like on my Bach 37, which plays well with a gap between 24mm and 25mm, with my preference in the middle at around 24.5mm.
Personally I find the King more precise/accurate above Bb;
It is difficult to ascertain as we are all different and all trumpets play differently, but more precise/accurate in the upper register probably equates to wider more defined slots, like you get with a larger mouthpiece gap/lesser insertion amount.
If it is not a typo and your King gap truly seems that large, I'd suggest instead comparing mouthpiece insertion amounts, to see whether your mouthpiece inserts less far into the receiver of your King trumpet.
Sound quality: Bach brighter, more easy to fill (=less resistance) up to G on the staff
I'm not sure whether I would particularly equate easier to fill as meaning less resistance, probably the reverse, but I am not playing your trumpet, and it is difficult to explain resistance in terms of words.
A pro friend told me the King sounds "tinny" in comparison - not my own idea though.
In all honesty, I think that the King and Bach Commerical are inherently too different to compare in terms of mouthpiece gap alone, and that it would be better to dial in your mouthpiece gap on each individually, then compare them to each other, knowing that you are comparing both with the best mouthpiece gap for you on that particular trumpet.
Obviously it is up to you, but I would not think of changing a trumpet, until I had dialled in the mouthpiece gap. My first impression of my Xeno II when trialled with my Bach 3C which inserts 24mm, was stuffy to blow, even sounded a little stuffy in my opinion, with a difficult upper register, and very defined slots. Stuffy and rigid slotting would be how I would describe it, and I nearly returned it. I then measured the insertion amount of the supplied Yamaha 16C4 mouthpiece, and it inserted 1mm more at 25mm. I had a sleeved copy of my Bach 3C, which just happened to insert 25mm, and the trumpet came alive. I later experimented with Jim New's gap modulator and couldn't improve on a 25mm insertion amount, which I now achieve via a James R New 6.5 sleeve. With this gap, this trumpet has a nice fairly open blow and sufficiently defined slotting, and plays extremely well for me.
The mouthpiece is a Stork VM6 - constituting end of Safari.
I've never played a Stork mouthpiece, but presume that they are reasonably priced, readily available, and consistent from one example to another. If so, my suggestion would be to buy another one, have it cut for sleeves and experiment with gap.
I hope that this will help.
All the best
Lou
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" Using a toothpick, can you feel the top of the leadpipe as a ledge inside the mouthpiece receiver" - that I did with help of the vernier caliper, the long protruding end which evolves if you open up the blades. So I felt the top of the leadpipe, distance from top of the receiver is 36,47 mm! .
Insertion, both horns, is 22,50) so the gap is roughly 14 on the King. If I have understood..... You describe insertions about 24-25 - could that really make such a difference! Interesting.
As others have pointed out (like OldSchoolEuph) these two horns are so widely different, the sheer difference in mass is obvious etc etc. I should have had that in mind - me old goat - to use one of my favourite quotes (J Cleese):"and now for something completely different"." when I bought the thing. It´s a lovely horn, the Bach, in its own right/and in right hands). But I don´t seem to fit it.
Maybe I can try a Callet, Thomann in Germany sell them. If I have understood all nice inputs it should not be a lightweight horn, maybe even a L bore. Right?
_________________
Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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