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GlenO New Member
Joined: 07 May 2018 Posts: 8
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Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 11:53 am Post subject: Low breathing? |
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My voice teacher (singing is a new project for me) says use a low breath to sing, which is inhaling by extending the abdomen outward. Does this make any sense for trumpet? |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1885
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Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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It would be normal for the abdomen to extend outwardsas a result of a full breath, but I wouldn't extend it outward on purpose. Certainly not before Taking air in. |
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bear30101 Regular Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2015 Posts: 89 Location: Ga.
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Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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Check out Jim Manley on youtube. He sure makes low breathing work. Also gives skype lessons. Helped me immeasurably. _________________ searching |
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GlenO New Member
Joined: 07 May 2018 Posts: 8
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks. Jim Manley is saying the same thing. Seems it also helps keep the throat relaxed and open - now just have to put it into practice. The difference still feels subtle to me, but if the chest moves it is no good. |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 5:49 am Post subject: |
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90% mental
9% air
1% everything else
Focus on the sound and the breath will take care of itself _________________ Bill Bergren |
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Pete Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2001 Posts: 1739 Location: Western Massachusetts
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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None of these pertain to the teachings of William Adam. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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PH Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001 Posts: 5860 Location: New Albany, Indiana
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Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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Billy B wrote: | None of these pertain to the teachings of William Adam. |
Agreed. Therefore, it should be moved to the open forums. _________________ Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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I really don't understand how people can give a percentage for such things.
Is the percentage relative to the quantity or the importance ? Not really the same...
Trumpet playing is mainly physical, and physical depends also on mental, psychological, and hormonal.
So, saying it's 90% mental is wrong.
best |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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Now, to answer the OP, low breathing is, according to teachers like Bobby Shew, for low register. He teaches complete breathing.
But stomach outward won't give you the right amount of muscular support.
So, not efficient, and at term, aesthetically bad |
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Grits Burgh Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015 Posts: 805 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 3:10 am Post subject: |
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Excerpt from Brass Playing is no Harder than Deep Breathingby Claude Gordon:
Now, let us reason with the natural forces that govern our movements.
Air is stored in the lungs to bring oxygen to the blood and then to expel the used air out of the system.
Food is stored in the stomach for digestion. In no manner can this by reversed. Therefore the lungs must be our first consideration in a breathing machine.
The first rule then is fill your lungs with air. Comfortably full, not overfull. If you try to take in more than the lungs will hold, you will just get extremely tense, so that even talking is difficult. One way you can check yourself is to stand erect with your hands at your sides and the palms of your hands facing the front. Take a full breath, while at the same time pulling your arms back. Notice where the air goes-into the chest, not the stomach.
It is as they used to say in army training. “Get those shoulders back!” (NOT UP) Notice this feels good and refreshing because it is natural and therefore correct. This is good posture and with a little practice will stay that way.
In this position, the lungs will take in a lot of air and may be compared with the full tank of gas in your car.
With this comparison in mind, ask the question, “When the car tuns out of gas, does the gas tank collapse?” No.
The same with your chest. When you run out of air the chest does not collapse. IT STAYS UP!
With the chest up, the chest and back muscles work properly as they were intended – naturally.
If your chest is up, you cannot breathe incorrectly.
This will not develop simply by thinking about it any more than any other of the body muscles will. The student should practice breathing exercises as a part of his daily practice using natural athletic exercises – not broomsticks, medicine balls, or books.
There are those that think that the larger a person is, the larger his lungs, and therefore the better and easier he will play. This is not necessarily true. It is not the size, but the development of the muscles that produce the bellows action. Many of our greatest players were small in stature, but with tremendous development.
Whenever you start to play, if only one note, start with the chest up and the lungs full of air. This is your fuel. You wouldn't start a long trip in your car with the tank only one-quarter full. This is also your support. Keep the chest up and you are ready for anything you must play. If you should turn the page and there is a HIGH “F” staring at you, and your chest is down, you will miss it. This brings up the first rule of brass playing:
1. Let the air do the work.
Practice doing this. Stand up in an erect position. Shoulders back (NOT UP). Take a full, comfortable breath. Now, let the air out, but keep the chest up. Take another breath, (chest still up) and let the air out, but don't let the chest down. Take ten breaths in this manner, without the chest dropping. Do this same exercise (10 breaths) at least five times every day. More if you wish, but a minimum of at least five times daily, always keeping the chest up. If the chest drops, you are wasting your time. Keep this up every day for a minimum of two weeks.
Warm regards,
Grits _________________ Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2662 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 11:46 am Post subject: |
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As much as I love so much of Claude Gordon, most of this is so screamingly inaccurate from a physiological view point it is not funny. It really does need to be rewritten from his chatty, colloquial style into a more factual one.
Bottom line needs to be more along the lines of:
Inhalation: The diaphragm is a muscle which draws air into the lungs when it tenses. Your posture will determine how this is accomplished and to what capacity, plus how well you will be able to exhale in a manner which allows for playing trumpet (etc.) acceptably.
When the diaphragm contracts and moves downward, the lungs fill with air and organs and structures under it must move somewhere (liquids are essentially incompressible). That somewhere needs to bellowed and is found to be in abdomen (stomach). Sleeping children and dogs demonstrate this rather admirably, just have a watch of them.
When it comes to posture, Claude Gordon sounds pretty spot on, but it can still be brought up to date, incorporating Alexander and Feldenkreis concepts.
For the OP, your singing teacher has given you, if you are quoting them correctly, a very simple concept to work with. this is actually a rather good idea instead of pages and pages or writing! Stand up tall, relax and take a deep relaxed breath.
It does seem to be rather beneficial to singing and trumpet playing!
OK, flame away!
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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Speed Veteran Member
Joined: 13 May 2015 Posts: 295 Location: Mississippi
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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My experience is as a trumpet player, a vocalist and an athlete, and I have worked with professional teachers/coaches in all three activities. Those activities all require the filling of the lungs with air, consistently and deeply.
The lungs are where the action is when breathing deeply, not the abdomen; however, unless I misunderstand them, Claude Gordon's comments make it appear that one should consciously work to keep the abdomen from expanding when breathing deeply.
It seems to me that EITHER making the abdomen expand with each breath - which seems to be what the OP's voice teacher is saying - OR consciously making the abdomen NOT visibly expand - which seems to be the Claude Gordon idea - are equally counterproductive.
Just breath naturally, but deeply. The entire upper torso will expand with each breath, i.e., both the chest cavity and the abdomen; but the focus should be on the lungs, not the abdomen. |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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What it feels like and what is actually happening are usually two different things. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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Grits Burgh Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015 Posts: 805 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Andy Del posted:
Quote: | As much as I love so much of Claude Gordon, most of this is so screamingly inaccurate from a physiological view point it is not funny. It really does need to be rewritten from his chatty, colloquial style into a more factual one.
Bottom line needs to be more along the lines of:
Inhalation: The diaphragm is a muscle which draws air into the lungs when it tenses. Your posture will determine how this is accomplished and to what capacity, plus how well you will be able to exhale in a manner which allows for playing trumpet (etc.) acceptably.
When the diaphragm contracts and moves downward, the lungs fill with air and organs and structures under it must move somewhere (liquids are essentially incompressible). That somewhere needs to bellowed and is found to be in abdomen (stomach). Sleeping children and dogs demonstrate this rather admirably, just have a watch of them. |
Though I am favorably disposed to all things Australian, am not an expert in physiology, and am not even a particularly good trumpet player, I would like to point out that while the primary inspiratory muscles are the external intercostals and the diaphragm, the primary expiratory muscles are the internal intercostals, intercostalis intimi, and subcostals; not the diaphragm. Though the diaphragm does indeed play a role in expiration, it is a subordinate role to the larger muscles. Of course, it is expiration that is important to the production of sound on a trumpet.
Chatty, colloquial style notwithstanding, Mr. Gordon's contention that keeping the chest up promotes efficient use of the major muscles of expiration is correct.
Warm regards,
Grits _________________ Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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area51recording Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 480
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:33 am Post subject: |
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What works for me is to stay out of my own way. Posture: no slouching, but not overly at attention either. As far as 'extending" the abs: Release the abs, ALLOW the breath to come in (low), and play... |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2662 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:38 am Post subject: |
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Grits Burgh wrote: | Though I am favorably disposed to all things Australian, am not an expert in physiology, and am not even a particularly good trumpet player, I would like to point out that while the primary inspiratory muscles are the external intercostals and the diaphragm, the primary expiratory muscles are the internal intercostals, intercostalis intimi, and subcostals; not the diaphragm. Though the diaphragm does indeed play a role in expiration, it is a subordinate role to the larger muscles. Of course, it is expiration that is important to the production of sound on a trumpet.
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Huh? I agree, you're not an expert. But then again, I'm not a physician either, but just a player and was highly involved in technical diving, so took in rather a lot of information regarding respiration, effort, what allows one to exhale with less effort and [b]what effort creates a lessening of expiration[/b. This was rather important, as getting it wrong underwater had a pretty nasty knock on effect of winding up unconscious and pretty soon dead. So I sort of got the hang of it, without too many big words.
I don't and will not bother with muscle groups, especially those involved in high effort breathing when all that is needed is to have a good reserve of air in the lungs so I can let air out easily. Keeping it going seems to work better from abdominal support than using structures higher up.
No one seems to be disagreeing with the idea of upright posture (although 'chest up' is a pretty loose term) And I doubt that anyone actually thinks air goes into anywhere but the lungs. Just keeping things simple, easy to picture in the mind and easy to get a positive result from are the important things...
Like I did when diving to 100m and other adventurous things - keep it simple.
K.I.S.S. is the way. (There's even diving gear branded as KISS!)
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1283
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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JVL wrote: | I really don't understand how people can give a percentage for such things.
Is the percentage relative to the quantity or the importance ? Not really the same...
Trumpet playing is mainly physical, and physical depends also on mental, psychological, and hormonal.
So, saying it's 90% mental is wrong.
best |
...
Last edited by dstpt on Sun Jan 29, 2023 6:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Grits Burgh Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015 Posts: 805 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Andy Del posted:
Huh?
K.I.S.S. is the way. (There's even diving gear branded as KISS!) |
K.I.S.S.:
When you blow out, the diaphragm acts like an anvil. It provides a surface upon which the big muscles in the upper body squeeze the air out of the lungs. The big muscles supply the power. Keep your chest up so that the big muscles work the way God intended for them to work.
Warm regards,
Grits _________________ Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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dstpt wrote: | JVL wrote: | I really don't understand how people can give a percentage for such things.
Is the percentage relative to the quantity or the importance ? Not really the same...
Trumpet playing is mainly physical, and physical depends also on mental, psychological, and hormonal.
So, saying it's 90% mental is wrong.
best |
For me I think it's 100% hormonal, which is probably my problem. I don't think I have any more of those left! |
sorry, i don't understand, is it a joke ?
if so, for example the activity of the thyroid affects, among lot of parameters, the velocity of muscular contraction, and an hypothyroidism can induce a slower velocity in muscular relaxation phasis, which will be detrimental for phrasing, don't you think ?
I can give you hundred other examples if you wish |
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