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Video: Middle Aged Amatuer Lead Player w/Range but No Style


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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice playing Mike.
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread really delivers. That's some beautiful playing.

It always helps me think more like a musician by getting away from trumpet players. Here's an interesting lesson on an active listening strategy.


Link
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just had my final two concerts. I didn’t suck that bad. The first link I posted was the chart I struggled with the most style-wise. It sounded okay both times, though not as good as it should be.

I have spoken to several pro musician/teacher types. That with the input here and my own analysis yeilds this plan of action for the next four months:

1. Foucus on rhythm. I especially like Victor Wooten’s approach. Also, start emphasizing two and four. Hopefully that will unleash me from the concert band time I learned as a child and let me internalize rhythm.

2. I have Basie and Thad Jones lead books on the way. While
I have a Gordon Goodwin lead book but I need to focus on the bands that defined big band jazz. I will play along and record myself
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
Just had my final two concerts. I didn’t suck that bad. The first link I posted was the chart I struggled with the most style-wise. It sounded okay both times, though not as good as it should be.

I have spoken to several pro musician/teacher types. That with the input here and my own analysis yeilds this plan of action for the next four months:

1. Foucus on rhythm. I especially like Victor Wooten’s approach. Also, start emphasizing two and four. Hopefully that will unleash me from the concert band time I learned as a child and let me internalize rhythm.

2. I have Basie and Thad Jones lead books on the way. While
I have a Gordon Goodwin lead book but I need to focus on the bands that defined big band jazz. I will play along and record myself


You have a formidable range, nice attack and a very good technique. And you have laid down countless hours to reach this level.
Please rejoice in that. Dammit!
Your plans for the future seem very well chosen. Thad Jones and Basie play in a very laid back and groovy way. O yeah!
Why do I write this? Coming form a concert band myself half a century ago having a hard time trying to internalize that "triplet -feeling" still falling back sometimes when that inner voice tells me "you should sound perfect, but come on you want to be better than that". Helpful? Nope.
So what did help me the most? Singing the phrases! I would suggest you sing the phrases for some months, just to get the spirit, then record. Some kind of rhythm - giving device might be of help (myself I have a Yamaha "tonebank").
But I suspect you will come down harshly on yourself so to say it again in the words of Sy Oliver: "tain´t what you do it is how you do it":
https://www.trumpetrange.com/video/snooky-young-trumpeter-taint-what-you-do-johnny-carsons-tonight-show-band-1989/
Set your speakers on max and sing along!!! Til you leave your normal state entering a "hypnagogic one! "Sing sing sing! or better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9uOlLPzJPI
Good luck!
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Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:46 am; edited 2 times in total
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Singing my parts is something I just l started doing this year and going toward step one of learning/improving every lick and tune will be singing it first.

And I am not really being hard on myself so much as honest.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
Singing my parts is something I just l started doing this year and going toward step one of learning/improving every lick and tune will be singing it first.

And I am not really being hard on myself so much as honest.


Good ideas! Also not beating yourself! And thanks for having spoken that frankly!
By the way, having pondered on this post for some time I think here are the seeds for other posts -. about how we learn to play, in what kind of bands and so forth. Identifying crucial factors.
Learning to play is learning to express yourself in a new, different language.
From lots of research we now know that learning to speak is mediated by particular regions in the brain.
Came to think about this since I also learnt to play in a concert band; there was a fixed form for playing which thus became the main road sort of. Applying that "style" to a swingband was not possible.....to say the least.
An example from the language world could be hearing a Frenchman speak english....or even worse an Italian speak english.....you just can´t use the same melody, the same accentuations....
However here comes summer so now off to vacation - of course bringing the horn along. Thinking on new posts!
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Derek Reaban
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JoseLindE4 wrote:
This thread really delivers. That's some beautiful playing.

It always helps me think more like a musician by getting away from trumpet players. Here's an interesting lesson on an active listening strategy.


Link


Another excellent video! Thanks for posting this. Rediscovering the historic recording of Oscar Peterson with his trio doing C Jam Blues and many others is really inspiring. Her passion for sharing these recordings and how she applied them to her own playing was excellent.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
Singing my parts is something I just l started doing this year and going toward step one of learning/improving every lick and tune will be singing it first.

And I am not really being hard on myself so much as honest.


Oh I´m here again, a thought popped up: singing is helpful internalizing rhythms. But also for another aspect that I think we´ve forgotten: breathing!
Adequate inhaling of air is very beneficial not to say necessary for playing phrases that are hold together. Speaking from my own experience I can notice huge differences between breathing in a not syncronized way versus the opposite. In order to play a swingy lead (or what ever music) this constitutes the foundation.
Over and out!
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derek Reaban wrote:
JoseLindE4 wrote:
This thread really delivers. That's some beautiful playing.

It always helps me think more like a musician by getting away from trumpet players. Here's an interesting lesson on an active listening strategy.


Link


Another excellent video! Thanks for posting this. Rediscovering the historic recording of Oscar Peterson with his trio doing C Jam Blues and many others is really inspiring. Her passion for sharing these recordings and how she applied them to her own playing was excellent.


I have watched that video several times......
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tptguy
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only skimmed the previous responses so please disregard any points already made. As I think you hear, your sound and groove are approximately at a community band level. That's not a bad thing. Only a small percentage ever achieve both pro level sound and groove. I suggest that singing, not just listening, is your next step.

You must sing, sing until you find the groove. Then sing, sing, sing until the groove becomes second nature. Get your entire body "into the pocket". How do you know you are in the pocket? When you have the confidence to show it, and other band members, the best ones, look back in agreement. That's the reason hip musicians invented the head bob, lol.

I also think you'd be well advised to ponder your equipment choices. There are horns and mouthpieces that will give you a much more focused and solid core, one that is much closer to pitch. Once you hear the pitch better, then you'll lead better. And you will need all these stripes before the band will get under your wing and truly love to follow you. Find that pocket! Best wishes, Kyle
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tptguy wrote:
I only skimmed the previous responses so please disregard any points already made. As I think you hear, your sound and groove are approximately at a community band level. That's not a bad thing. Only a small percentage ever achieve both pro level sound and groove. I suggest that singing, not just listening, is your next step.

You must sing, sing until you find the groove. Then sing, sing, sing until the groove becomes second nature. Get your entire body "into the pocket". How do you know you are in the pocket? When you have the confidence to show it, and other band members, the best ones, look back in agreement. That's the reason hip musicians invented the head bob, lol.

I also think you'd be well advised to ponder your equipment choices. There are horns and mouthpieces that will give you a much more focused and solid core, one that is much closer to pitch. Once you hear the pitch better, then you'll lead better. And you will need all these stripes before the band will get under your wing and truly love to follow you. Find that pocket! Best wishes, Kyle


Good advice except for equipment. My sound has a huge core and soars over the band when I want it to. That is not something an iPhone recording picks up so well. I can also blend well with the section and play very well in tune. My issue is internalizing rythm.
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EdMann
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure why this is in High Notes Dev., but whatever.

I make it my mission to swing hard. That doesn't mean to play eighths like they're dotted eighths and sixteenths. It's strictly articulation and feel. NO one swings harder that Clark Terry. Wynton, yeah. Wynton has so much as said, regarding improv, 'it's less about the notes than the rhythm.' And certainly not about the range. I wouldn't listen to later Maynard another day. He was rockin' 80% of his book. His early Roulette swung like crazy. You can hear it in Carl Saunders work, even though it sounds like straight eighths, it's articulated in swingtime.

Like Clark said, and I paraphrase "doodle doodle doodle doodle."

ed
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s in the “High Notes” forum because we don’t have a dedicated forum for Lead, and right or wrong, Lead playing is associated with high notes—though Lead has always been more about style than screaming. Developing style—especially up-tempo swing and bebop—is MUCH harder than developing range.
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EdMann
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just tryin' to be helpful.
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gchun01
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobby Shew recommends learning to play time on a drumset.

http://www.bobbyshew.com/main.html?pgid=7&art_artcl_id=11

I never learned how to do it on a full set, but did spend time learning to play a swing pattern on the ride cymbal. That REALLY opened up my ears. I never heard time/groove thing the same way.

I also experimented using a drum machine playing a swing groove in place of the standard click metronome. Also, try using the standard metronome clicking on only beats two and four.

Playing some electric bass helped me have better understanding of how rhythm sections function. Listening to non-horn jazz groups helps as well.

Garry
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Video: Middle Aged Amatuer Lead Player w/Range but No S Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
Here is an example of what I was talking about in the other thread. I know how this should sound. I know when to make notes short, when to back tongue, how hard to swing..........but I can’t seem to do it. My style is not right. I am performing this tune this weekend.

https://youtu.be/uQ7Fv9xAztk


Interesting freezer chests. What brand are they?

Lol you'll be fine. Hard to tell style without the band.
Do your best and have fun!
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irving wrote:
Maybe you should look to play somewhere where you don't have to play lead. If you play in the section you will be forced to listen to how the other guys are playing. You might learn a lot that way.

He has a great second chair player that can both swing and improvise
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
Mike—thanks! There is a smoothness to your style I need to build
into my playing. I can hear it better when it’s played alone vs hearing it played with the band.

I do like high notes when they add to the tune. My jazz band director and composer of the tune likes the high note at the end of this piece. I take things up an octave ocassionally, though mostly I just work to get the tune sorted out.

To All,

There have been a couple of points discussed here that I think are key. I have been intently listening to big bands for a dozen years. These include: Gordon Goodwin, Jack Cortner, Count Basie, Tonight Show Band, Buddy Rich, Maynard. I have studied with a top notch teacher. What is missing is my internal rhythm.

Not just jazz rhythm but all rythm. I think that is where I need to start. While there has been a ton of good input here, I think Denny, Derek, and Justus said it in a way that resonated (pun intended) with me. When I have internalized rhythm, then the listening, singing, transcribing, and imitating will have a chance of taking hold. Also, maybe all that style stuff I know intellectually will take hold.

Jeff,

I get what you are saying about teachers. Not every student can learn from every teacher—even great teachers. That said, I tend to put the blame on the student when that student is me. It’s my job to take the info that is given and figure out how to apply it. No teacher can do it for me. I spent 11 of my 24 years in the USAF as an instructor pilot. I worked hard to tailor my instruction to the specific student,l and always looked to help him/her find those rare “aha” moments when they finally get some concept. The best learning usually happened when the student could start teaching me.

I will do this. I will look and see if I can find a teacher to help me with rythm and jazz style. It was gong to be my current jazz band director but he just got hired by a university into a tenure track position.


What did all the jazz greats do? PLAY ARBAN! Get that sense of time, rhythm and style internalized doing it STRAIGHT. How are your legit chops?

After that, jazz feel (talking the lead book here, not improvising) will come more naturally. Especially if you're singing your jazz parts during the time period you're working on this, not neglecting the section on phrasing. Lots and lots of middle register, easy playing will only help your chops too, balancing out the work in the upper register you've done.

How do you improve at sight reading? By doing a LOT of it
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a lesson with my local guy and I actually figured out how to get that smooth swingy sound. It's not second nature yet but I did figure out how to make it. When I get it down better I'll post a link.
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EdMann wrote:
Just tryin' to be helpful.


Ed,

I am not disputing you at all, but you are not the only one has commented about why a thread on lead jazz style is in the High Range section. I didn't know where else to put it.

My new mission is also to swing hard, and that will probably be my mission for the rest of my life. Right now its back to Basie-ics for me. Like Aimee said, no one swings harder than the Count Basie Orchestra.
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