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Video: Middle Aged Amatuer Lead Player w/Range but No Style


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EdMann
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got it, but I might think you'd have more expert, or at least varied commentary on jazz phrasing, swing feel, in the Jazz forum. That's where the swingers live!

good luck!

ed
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oljackboy
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting thread. I really think it would help you to play a section part in a big band with a really advanced lead player. Just as the drummer and bass player in a big band lay down the time, the effective lead trumpet player literally leads the ensemble in an interpretation of the time. There are lead players who really interpret the time freely, and those who are a little less outrageous about it.
It isn't always easy to find a chair in a big band with this kind of lead player. but absolutely worth the effort.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This reads like a mental block brought on by over-expectations, self-pressure and flagellation, and over-analysis. Can you pass on the performance solos for now? Maybe you should listen to some recordings, work out some solos by woodshedding slooowly (well under tempo) through them, focusing on hearing in your mind what you want to play, maybe writing them out, and generally lower the pressure level on yourself. If you need to solo on the gig, just do some more basic riffs over the changes, simplify and relax.

It seems like you're in one of those nasty endless loops of trying to force things and killing yourself when it doesn't fall into place so you try harder and get more stressed out so things fall apart even more...

Play some Arbans.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When my hi school band director wanted to teach us swing and big band rhythm for our very good stage band he set us down and sent us home with Woody Herman recordings. He played sax with them and it was the way he wanted us to play. I already loved Duke, and Count and Kenton, but when I got down with the Herman band I began to pick up the feel it transferrred to other music. We had a lot of Herman arrangements and we always started by listening to what he did then tried to groove along with it. Some of the players hit it pretty well, some couldn’t cut the notes, and we certainly couldn’t play all we saw (some were copies of the original charts). We saw at least 5 charts that were beyond any player we had at the time. I had one lead chart I didn’t even know what the notes were because I’d never seen anything written so hi. BUT seeing the notes then hearing them played and working toward it helped a lot. If you want to learn to swing hard listen to Woody and Buddy and if you can find some lead charts for their stuff play along. Buddy Rich also knew how.
My $.02
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jazz_trpt
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
When my hi school band director wanted to teach us swing and big band rhythm for our very good stage band he set us down and sent us home with Woody Herman recordings.


I listened to Woody 1963/Encore and 1964 ALOT when I was in high school. That was a helluva band.

My band director in HS sent a lot of music home with us, from Maynard to Basie to Woody...having that stuff to play along with was like taking lessons from the masters.
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don Herman rev2 wrote:
This reads like a mental block brought on by over-expectations, self-pressure and flagellation, and over-analysis. Can you pass on the performance solos for now? Maybe you should listen to some recordings, work out some solos by woodshedding slooowly (well under tempo) through them, focusing on hearing in your mind what you want to play, maybe writing them out, and generally lower the pressure level on yourself. If you need to solo on the gig, just do some more basic riffs over the changes, simplify and relax.

It seems like you're in one of those nasty endless loops of trying to force things and killing yourself when it doesn't fall into place so you try harder and get more stressed out so things fall apart even more...

Play some Arbans.


This is where things go sideways when trying to analyze an INTJ. It is my analysis that has created the understanding that my lead style is about half what it should be. It is also my research and analysis that has given me a solution.

Also, an INTJ is brutally honest about everything, especially about themselves. To an INTJ there is NOTHING worse than thinking they are better than they really are. For some that may be self-flaggation, but not me. It just an honest recognition of what works and what doesn’t. Things do not have value unless they work properly. The end state of that all that is my jazz band won’t get any better until get better, so it’s MY fault the band is at the level it is.

Yesterday I discovered how to make the style I want. I have a method to lock in time. I will post some video later.

So far I have been through three levels of the application of swing style.

1. Playing uneven eights with a triplet feel but chopping everything up. That isn’t swinging

2. Playing uneven eights with a triplet feel and moving to more of a 60/40
for fast swing, carrying the air/no space between connected notes, back-tonguing, making short notes short/fat. That swings a little and is where I have been for a long time.

3. All the above plus smoothing out the tonguing so lines are less clunky, accenting off beats—some more than others, and developing rock solid sense of time. See Mike Sailor’s video on Page 2 of this thread for an example.

I want to sincerely that all who participated in this thread. You all have helped me think and analyze my way to a solution.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not know what "INTJ" means but you're saying this is a personality disorder? Welcome to trumpet players. In any event I'd best stay out of this one, good luck, hope you manage to achieve your goals! - Don
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some would call it is personality disorder. The Myers Briggs afficianados call it an oddly developed type.
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mm55
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your belief system requires you to live in a four-letter box that's limiting you, maybe a new belief system without the limiting box would be useful.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nos Mo King wrote:
I agree with Jeff in that we can be taught how to swing, or play higher, etc....but if you have a belief that you can master the trumpet, and your (trumpet playing) happiness is conditional upon the myth that anyone could master it, then IMHO you are going to be miserable. Trumpet playing is hard enough without that saddle on your back.

Ask any professional ( whom you may believe is a master of this beast) if they are satisfied with their playing, and I can guarantee what the answer is going to be.

You have the rest of your life to get better... try to spend some time in your playing just enjoying the challenge.


All the best


I have not read this entire thread, so maybe this is irrelevant. But if INTJ was implying “mastering” the horn, but I agree that VERY few people ever come close to that level. Even someone as accomplished as Arturo Sandoval has said.....see the quote below. He was answering someone who had asked if he always sounds spectacular.

Brad
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don Herman rev2 wrote:
I do not know what "INTJ" means but you're saying this is a personality disorder? Welcome to trumpet players. In any event I'd best stay out of this one, good luck, hope you manage to achieve your goals! - Don


I don’t know whether it’s a personality disorder or a personality type, maybe both?
https://www.google.com/search?q=intj&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

http://www.humanmetrics.com/personality/intj

Brad
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a close family member that did Meyers-Briggs certification (to distribute and score the inventory) and it can be very useful in understanding oneself and others.

I do feel like a real danger is that (kind of like a diagnosis) it blesses people to endorse their worse tendencies. I worry a little that the OP is going to come out of this and say, "well those were great suggestions, but I'm just going to keep pounding my head against the wall in the exact same way, because that's what my personality is."
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The first step in changing is admitting you need to change."
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Denny Schreffler
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don Herman rev2 wrote:
"The first step in changing is admitting you need to change."


A classic pop-psych tome which addresses the psychology of the burden of self image

https://www.amazon.com/Psycho-Cybernetics-Updated-Expanded-Maxwell-Maltz/dp/0399176136
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denny Schreffler wrote:
Don Herman rev2 wrote:
"The first step in changing is admitting you need to change."


A classic pop-psych tome which addresses the psychology of the burden of self image

https://www.amazon.com/Psycho-Cybernetics-Updated-Expanded-Maxwell-Maltz/dp/0399176136


This I found on the net and I´m willing to subscribe to most of it; unfortunately psychology is full of very very superficial beliefs and tests. In the binary black and white world of today a scale like the Myer Briggs fits like a hand in a glove. Man is much much more complex than scales like these want to demonstrate. But they come in very handy when there is a need to simplify, often used by non-professionals at HR departments.
So if you have the stamina to read the following - go ahead.
Personally I´ve re-discovered the use of my diaphragm! But that´s entirely another topic.


The MBTI was developed during World War 2 by Myers and Briggs (obviously), two housewives who developed a keen interest in the works of Carl Jung. They developed the MBTI based on Jung's theories, with the intention of producing a useful test that would allow women entering the workforce to be assigned jobs that would be best suited to their personalities.

This is already enough to make some people wary. Myers and Briggs weren't trained scientists, but you don't need to be scientifically qualified to make a very valid contribution to science. Look at Galaxy Zoo. Also, deriving all your information from a single source is always questionable in science, even if it weren't the work of Jung, whose theories were/are very influential and far reaching but largely scientifically untestable and subject to numerous criticisms. But the debate around the validity of Jung's theories certainly isn't something I could settle in a blogpost.

The trouble is, the more you look into the specifics of the MBTI, the more questionable the way it's widespread use appears to be. There are numerous comprehensive critiques about it online, but the most obvious flaw is that the MBTI seems to rely exclusively on binary choices.

For example, in the category of extrovert v introvert, you're either one or the other; there is no middle ground. People don't work this way, no normal person is either 100% extrovert or 100% introvert, just as people's political views aren't purely "communist" or "fascist". Many who use the MBTI claim otherwise, despite the fact that Jung himself disagreed with this and statistical analysis reveals even data produced by the test shows a normal distribution rather than bimodal, refuting the either/or claims of the MBTI. But still this overly-simplified interpretation of human personality endures, even in the Guardian Science section!

Generally, although not completely unscientific, the MBTI gives a ridiculously limited and simplified view of human personality, which is a very complex and tricky concept to pin down and study. The scientific study of personality is indeed a valid discipline, and there are many personality tests that seemingly hold up to scientific scrutiny (thus far). It just appears that MBTI isn't one of them.

But so what? People often benefit from things with a limited scientific basis, for many reasons. Scientific validity is necessary if you're trying to diagnose a disorder of some sort, but in the everyday workplace for team building and the like? This is what MBTI is used for most, so why go on some major nerd-rant about how unscientific it is when it doesn't really matter?

Yes, the MBTI is harmless and potentially useful if you're aware of its limitations. That's the problem, though; the MBTI is predominately used in the workplace by HR departments, development/training teams and the like, who can often be clearly unaware of its limitations.


Quoted from: https://www.theguardian.com/science/brain-flapping/2013/mar/19/myers-briggs-test-unscientific

Beware! Man is such a complex creature and can not and should not be understood in so simple terms. I admitt it is tempting to explain this or that in such a clearcut way but but. This I say after more than 50 years as a clinical psychologist. And 60 years behind a mouthpiece.

Seymor - who is fundamentally opposed to fundamentalism.
ps: by the way I did a net-based Myer Briggs. And the result: I´m an INTJ - dammit - I always thought I was a relaxed guy always looking for new challenges, versatile, even sometimes funny
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seymor, if you do the real test it's not quite so binary. The internet ones give less nuance. For instance, I'm someone in the middle on extrovert and introvert and the test can plot your introversion/extroversion on a line. It helps me understand stronger extroverts and introverts better and I have used it to figure out that I often shine in small groups and one-on-one work; I can do public talking and performance, but find them a bit draining. For the P/J one, I also know that I love possibilities and always holding a million options in my head. I'd imagine the use for HR is just being aware of how different personalities interact. At the same time, it's not helpful for me to say, "I'm an introvert so I can just avoid people," or "I don't have to follow deadlines because I'm pretty sure something better is coming in a day or two."
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote:
Seymor, if you do the real test it's not quite so binary. The internet ones give less nuance. For instance, I'm someone in the middle on extrovert and introvert and the test can plot your introversion/extroversion on a line. It helps me understand stronger extroverts and introverts better and I have used it to figure out that I often shine in small groups and one-on-one work; I can do public talking and performance, but find them a bit draining. For the P/J one, I also know that I love possibilities and always holding a million options in my head. I'd imagine the use for HR is just being aware of how different personalities interact. At the same time, it's not helpful for me to say, "I'm an introvert so I can just avoid people," or "I don't have to follow deadlines because I'm pretty sure something better is coming in a day or two."



I´ve done them tests, long time ago and I was not impressed. Modern neuro-psychological research gives us lots of clues regarding how to understand the complex behaviour of mankind. There are so many other more sophisticated ways & tests. Many of which I have used.
However I didn´t want to suddenly convert INTJ:s basic stated dilemma into a discussion about testing- just to point out the big risk of attributing this or that to schemes sof little scientific bearing. Running the risk ending up in a self- fulfilling prophecy.
Mankind seems to be prone to be susceptible to dogmas and black&white thinking - to alluring quick fixes. Not that uncommon in politics, or our subject matter - trumpetplaying.
Nothing beats hard work and analytical thinking well balanced by emotions!
Plus it don´t mean a thing if it ain´t got that swing. Lack of which, by the way was our OP:s main concern. Some kind of unanimity was reached in suggesting him to sing his way through the scores, rather than thinking.
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Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote:
Seymor, if you do the real test it's not quite so binary. The internet ones give less nuance.


You may have missed this in Fudd's post:

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
This I say after more than 50 years as a clinical psychologist. And 60 years behind a mouthpiece.


I suspect he is aware of the issues...
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn’t know this thread was still going. For those of you who look at MBTI with suspicion, that’s your loss. It has been HUGELY illuminating for me. When you read the INTJ profile it fits me very well—like they watched me and then developed the profile. It helps me understand that most people are not interested in nor capable of delving into ideas the way that I do. Being aware of that keeps me out of all those socially awkward situations I used to find myself in. That makes me easier to get along with. It also helps me achieve even more in life than I already have. Enough if that.

I am getting more swingy. Not quite where I want it. I wish this thread has not been moved as I don’t want to have the style of a jazz player. As I continue listening to great lead players I find they play a little more cleanly and precisely than a jazz soloist. Maybe even a little more square.

I am still sorting all this out.........
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gchun01
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
....... I wish this thread has not been moved as I don’t want to have the style of a jazz player. As I continue listening to great lead players I find they play a little more cleanly and precisely than a jazz soloist.


A lot of the great lead players are also great jazz soloists. (Bobby Shew, Chuck Findley, Carl Saunders, Greg Gisbert, Snooky Young, Byron Stripling, etc.) I think it was Byron Stripling that said that lead players should strive to learn the "vocabulary" of jazz from the great jazz players and carry that over to their lead playing. It gives the flow and phrasing needed to make their lead playing swing.

We may be defining "jazz players" differently.
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