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I Think This May be All There Is........


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INTJ
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Joined: 25 Dec 2002
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry--INTJs are usually confusing and off-putting to deal with when they let people see how they process information. I do appreciate everyone's comments and have read them all. They have been helpful inputs in my decision on how--and even if--to proceed.
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 3:34 pm    Post subject: Re: I Think This May be All There Is........ Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
INTJ wrote:
I think I have gone as far as a left-brained logical type can go on trumpet, and no, I would not trade ANY of my logic and analysis skills for a better feel with jazz.


Blaine, you've decided that your situation is either/or. It's not.

There is nothing particularly wonderful about being left-brain dominant. Nor is there anything wonderful about being right-brain dominant. We've been given a whole brain for a reason. Use it or lose it.

It may be harder for you to internalize the more rhythmic side of things, but it can be done if you are determined. How long did you search for the secret to playing high? How serious were you in approaching that task?

I already know the answer. Now you have a new task, and it is no small challenge. You have to have the same level of determination in learning how to internalize swing time. Believe it or not, there are teachers out there who know exactly how to help you, AND YOU HAVE TO FIND THEM. Plus, the playalong swing time resources today are better than ever, if you know how to use them properly.

You are only 58 - way too young to admit defeat (in my opinion).

Jeff


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razeontherock
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Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 10609
Location: The land of GR and Getzen

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 7:36 pm    Post subject: Re: I Think This May be All There Is........ Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
I played as a kid in the 70s and failed because the way they tried to fix me killed all my range above the staff. I came back 17 years ago at age 41 and have since developed a strong upper range. I am an honest High G/A player for the length of my amateur endurance and have played DHCs in concerts. I play in tune and have a nice, full, resonant trumpet sound with a deep core. I have good control and flexibility.

I think that is as good as I can get. I suck at reading and improv; and even though I know how to play jazz correctly I often fail to do so. I just don’t know if I can get any better in these areas and have pretty much lost motivation to try. There are kids who started playing after I came back that can play better style than I.

I guess the final straw was the few lessons I have taken from a talented 29-30
year old kid. I thought I had already worked through developing a solid lead trumpet jazz style, but that is not the case. I just can’t seem to get the jazz style internalized. I can describe how a phrase should be played. Long notes, short notes, precise cutoffs, back tonguing, no space between certain notes, phrasing, et al. But it is hard for me to do it consistently when I play.

Probably the finest I have ever played was during a rehearsal immediately before a concert this past March. I was playing the lead/solo part of Keton’s Send In The Clowns and nailed it John Harner style. My community jazz band played especially well too and when we finished, we all just stayed silent for a few moments. I will never forget that.

So I can play big screaming ballads well, but in every other jazz style I am
mediocre. I can play screaming pop solos and charts well too......just not jazz.

At age 58 I just don’t think I am going to ever be good at jazz style. I think I can improve my reading a little. I can improv over pop changes ok (1-5-6-4) but who cares about that? Jazz improv will never likely be in reach for me.

I recently moved from a small town to a med town (with a university) an hour away and hoped to develop my skills to where I could be a guy they would call to come play at the many amateur events around here: churches, Christmas concerts, maybe sub for one of the local higher end community bands. However, I would not do so now even if asked because I am just not at that level and never will be. I think I have gone as far as a left-brained logical type can go on trumpet, and no, I would not trade ANY of my logic and analysis skills for a better feel with jazz.

I have actually started backing off my practice. Where I used to put in 2 hrs 6-7 days a week I now get 30-60 minutes 4-5 days a week. Seems like a waste to do any more when I am at my max level.

I will still play lead trumpet—and do my best to play correctiy—in the small town community jazz band an hour south of me, but that will be all I’m ever able to do trumpet wise. I will just be content with that and spend the rest of my hobby time doing something where I compete at a very high level.

Realize as a logical left-brained guy to me this post is just an honest analysis of where my trumpet playing is. I post all this without emotion. I guess I just wanted to see my own thought written down and see how it looked.......


You can get a jazz feel without sacrificing logic and analytical ability. It just comes down to listening, spending more time listening. Goz speaks volumes to me, personally ... as well as Maynard on Kenton's band, and then Maynard's Live at Jimmy's.

You "compete" at a very high level on trumpet per your description. The trick is to maintain the chops in less practice time which you're already working on, and spending more time listening. Of course start with the charts in your book, all the recordings you can find. Then pick your favorites. Don't even try to play along or emulate their style until after you've listened to it intently a bazillion times, plus one. Figure months. Only then start to play your chart, listening to one phrase at a time, hitting pause and playing it back, repeatedly. This will become a GREAT way to practice, but ya gotta get it "in you" first! You can do this. And consistency is THE main thing with playing lead (after style) The analytical ability really comes into play here.

Meanwhile your legit chops are good? You can cover all the Church stuff they can throw your way. Your range makes even their highest descants a walk in the park, so you're WAY ahead in the range plus endurance department and face it, that's the hardest part for everybody in the scene. (Assuming you won't be coming up against Maurice Andre here)

This hobby can pay; at least pay off your investment in equipment. You've got HUGE physical / mechanical advantage over just about everyone you could compete with, and that's mostly due to your logical and analytical ability. (It takes one to know one, fellow INTJ here. They destroyed my playing trying to "fix me" too; I was developing beautifully as a Reinhardt type IIIA which looks weird. I'm just stubborn, and was very invested in playing this crazy plumbing. I got elementary and rudiments playing in school that you didn't, that's all. You can make up for that much easier than it took me to make up for all the bad habits I picked up struggling through grueling school concerts, always orchestra, concert band then jazz band, 1st on everything with the repertoire picked to feature my high range. Rehearsals were never like the concert!)
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razeontherock
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Joined: 05 Jun 2004
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Location: The land of GR and Getzen

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ljazztrm wrote:
let’s listen to Al doing what he does best!

Link


Oh MAN! I have never heard Al play like that, that's amazing ...
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starkadder
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A fable about learning to play Jazz trumpet:


Link
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

INTJ wrote:
I talked to my jazz band director last night. He is from Brazil, has a doctorate from Colorado in jazz composition I think, has written several charts and recorded a couple albums including a very nice big band album. Check out Amizade - https://www.cassiovianna.com/listen . He recorded this with the
Colorado guys, and we have played it in our band as well.

Anyway, after rehearsal I began explaining how frustrated I was with my own lack of jazz feel. He got sort of a puzzled look and said he thought I sounded great and didn’t know what he’d do without me. I kind of took that with a grain of salt because it’s not like there is a huge talent pool in a small town.

We got to talking about style and wound up with me needing to learn to sing solos from jazz combo albums, while still applying my left brained approach to lead since leads HAS to be accurate. His thought—which is how he learned—is that by getting the jazz rhythms in my head via singing they will likely come out on the horn. The one he had me start with was a Louis Armstrong tune called hot something, where I noticed he sang a bunch of off beat 1/4 notes in perfect time.

Anyway, I might look at jazz style that way. Focusing on Rythm, as the link Denny sent me talks about. I know that 6-7 years with a pro trumpet player and excellent teacher didn’t get me what I needed in terms of jazz style, maybe this way will work—singing jazz rhythms.


YUP! This also bears mentioning that it is very much the way Bill Adam taught trumpet generally, and you can now progress by availing yourself of that, which will be fun.

Separately, it's possible to maintain trumpet skills, and develop musical ability pertinent to playing the lead chair, while enjoying the relief that having a great second chair player brings. You can obviously learn the style aspect of playing lead from him, and be under no time pressure to be able to improv at a high level. I bet that'll help you to take the time to develop. Re: improv as gladiator sport, listen to Roy Eldridge during his many "cutting sessions," all of which he "won." I don't find it that enjoyable; this may help you broaden your musical approach.

Meanwhile I think you can probably become a sub on the first book more readily than you've given yourself credit for. It's ok to require some prep time, getting the book in advance, being pointed to good recordings of their arrangements, and if they can't or won't give you that you don't take the gig. That's a reasonable way to 'put yourself out there' once you make some progress at sight reading, and I bet you can do that this Summer just by doing it. I recommend starting with Mean Ol Lion, Jerry Hey's lead chart is on YouTube along with the recording. You'll have fun with that! And it'll open up a door to subbing for local theater groups, which may lead to other playing opportunities.
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chuck in ny
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Joined: 23 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blaine

you can let this being a driven person thing go too far.
you are supposed to like the sound of the instrument and all its sound possibilities. otherwise get an instrument whose sound really really grabs you.
you are supposed to like music. play what style you like.
relax and give up trying to make some point in life. as a fellow INTJ i can tell you that it is natural to slip into lover boy mode. you have to love the trumpet. that's all there is to it.
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