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Tenor Horn players here??


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AwesomeDad
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve noticed there isn’t a lot of resources out there for alto/tenor horns. Would really like to hear from more players.

JJ
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This seems like a good place to ask the following question:

Why is the word Tenor used in conjunction with Alto for an Eb Tenor/Alto horn?

Wouldn't a Tenor horn be a longer (and thus lower) instrument than an Alto horn?

Also wouldn't a Tenor be played in base clef, where an Eb Alto is played in treble clef.

For example, why does Kanstul identify their Model 941 as an "Eb Tenor/Alto" horn as opposed to just an "Eb Alto" horn?

http://www.kanstul.com/941-eb-tenoralto-british-style/

In my younger days in the Netherlands I played the Alto for a few years prior to starting cornet, but I never heard it being referred to as a Tenor.

(I would love to have that Kanstul Alto but I can't effort one. I do have a relative new Schilke C-trumpet I don't expect to use anymore. Maybe I will go the marketplace to see if I can make and even swap for an Eb Alto )
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Bob Stevenson
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When brass bands became established among British working class people in the mid Victorian era they were really folk music for the industrial masses who were, essentially, quite poor people. The only music which could be readily transcribed were military marches, hymns and some operatic arias. Thus, originated the various 'quirks' of brass banding,...all players used the same clef and instruments aquired their own descriptive names such as 'bass' for the tubas and 'tenor' and 'baritone' for the two horn bore instruments, in five strong section (not including the single flugle horn used)

The Baritone (horn) is essentiallly a larger version of the tenor horn but in Bb...same as the euphonium (and seated next to) but a 'horn' voice instead of a tuba voice. Brass bands are always developing (contrary to some peoples opinions!) and the baritone has become a solo instrument in it's own rite in the past decade or so with most of the top bands featuring 'bari' soloists.
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Stevenson wrote:
When brass bands became established among British working class people in the mid Victorian era they were really folk music for the industrial masses who were, essentially, quite poor people. The only music which could be readily transcribed were military marches, hymns and some operatic arias. Thus, originated the various 'quirks' of brass banding,...all players used the same clef and instruments aquired their own descriptive names such as 'bass' for the tubas and 'tenor' and 'baritone' for the two horn bore instruments, in five strong section (not including the single flugle horn used)

The Baritone (horn) is essentially a larger version of the tenor horn but in Bb...same as the euphonium (and seated next to) but a 'horn' voice instead of a tuba voice. Brass bands are always developing (contrary to some peoples opinions!) and the baritone has become a solo instrument in it's own rite in the past decade or so with most of the top bands featuring 'bari' soloists.


Bob, thanks so much for your substantial explanation.

I must not be reading your post right.
I am sure the answer to my question is in there somewhere but I am missing it.
Could I get you to elaborate a little more?

Thanks again.
Cheers,
Harry
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry Hilgers wrote:
This seems like a good place to ask the following question:

Why is the word Tenor used in conjunction with Alto for an Eb Tenor/Alto horn?

Hi Harry

I don't know, but probably just how they were historically named in a British Brass Band.


Wouldn't a Tenor horn be a longer (and thus lower) instrument than an Alto horn?

Only I think if someone was to take the tenor horn label literally.

A Tenor Horn is in the same key and equivalent in pitch to an Alto Sax.
A Baritone Horn is in the same key and equivalent in pitch to a Tenor Sax.

I don't know why this is the case, just that it is.


An Alto Horn is just another name for a Tenor Horn.

Also wouldn't a Tenor be played in base clef, where an Eb Alto is played in treble clef.

No, at least not in a brass band, where as you know, all instruments including the Eb and Bb basses play in treble clef, with the bass trombone being the only instrument playing in bass clef (and in concert pitch.

For example, why does Kanstul identify their Model 941 as an "Eb Tenor/Alto" horn as opposed to just an "Eb Alto" horn?

Probably just to give both of the names commonly used. I think that just to use the name Eb Alto Horn (I believe that Yamaha only used the name Alto Horn), would be contradictory to the instrument name in a British Brass Band.

http://www.kanstul.com/941-eb-tenoralto-british-style/

In my younger days in the Netherlands I played the Alto for a few years prior to starting cornet, but I never heard it being referred to as a Tenor.

Possibly just a British Brass Band thing. Whatever the name, an Eb Alto Horn and Eb Tenor Horn are exactly the same instrument

Take care

Lou


(I would love to have that Kanstul Alto but I can't effort one. I do have a relative new Schilke C-trumpet I don't expect to use anymore. Maybe I will go the marketplace to see if I can make and even swap for an Eb Alto )

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Bob Stevenson
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry....Brss bands were formed out of a choral tradition that was/is basically medieval. Singing in choirs both secular and in church was pretty much the only music that the early bandsmen had as inspiration.....that's why, even today, some little heard of brass bands in the north of England have a wonderful sweet 'voice' with great depth...it's kind of about singing.

The repercussions of this 'choral' or 'vocal' inspiration has reflections on why bands are the way they are........names for instruments,...style of playing...lack of instruments such as trumpets etc

The tenor horn plays 'tenor' voice parts....'Alto' is, perhaps, too instrumental!
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THE BD
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
(I would love to have that Kanstul Alto but I can't effort one. I do have a relative new Schilke C-trumpet I don't expect to use anymore. Maybe I will go the marketplace to see if I can make and even swap for an Eb Alto )


Let me know if you'd like to swap, I do have a Yamaha alto that isn't seeing any use these days!

Send me an email to mdwilliamsmusic@gmail.com
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
Harry Hilgers wrote:

A Tenor Horn is in the same key and equivalent in pitch to an Alto Sax.
A Baritone Horn is in the same key and equivalent in pitch to a Tenor Sax.
I don't know why this is the case, just that it is.
An Alto Horn is just another name for a Tenor Horn.

Lou


I wouldn't be surprised if this was started by a couple of drunken sailors, one being sax player and the other being a brass player.

Thanks Louise and others for your replies.
Cheers, Harry
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry Hilgers wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
Harry Hilgers wrote:

A Tenor Horn is in the same key and equivalent in pitch to an Alto Sax.
A Baritone Horn is in the same key and equivalent in pitch to a Tenor Sax.
I don't know why this is the case, just that it is.
An Alto Horn is just another name for a Tenor Horn.

Lou


Hi Harry

I wouldn't be surprised if this was started by a couple of drunken sailors, one being sax player and the other being a brass player.

Maybe lol.

Thanks Louise and others for your replies.
Cheers, Harry

You are always very welcome.

Take care

Lou

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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not exactly resurrecting a deceased post here, but I recently acquired a Boston Instrument Manufactory Eb Alto Horn (I guess they're also called Tenor Horns) and absolutely love playing this instrument.

As a jazz player, I seriously doubt I'll ever play in a brass band, but I've already played Alto Horn on two gigs and am enthused about how good it sounds and how great it makes my chops feel.

My question is: where do we commune with fellow travelers who play this great instrument?

I looked for a forum and didn't find one, but found posts about Eb Alto Horn here on Trumpet Herald. Is this where we all are? Do we need a dedicated forum?


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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BeboppinFool wrote:
Not exactly resurrecting a deceased post here, but I recently acquired a Boston Instrument Manufactory Eb Alto Horn (I guess they're also called Tenor Horns) and absolutely love playing this instrument.

As a jazz player, I seriously doubt I'll ever play in a brass band, but I've already played Alto Horn on two gigs and am enthused about how good it sounds and how great it makes my chops feel.

My question is: where do we commune with fellow travelers who play this great instrument?

I looked for a forum and didn't find one, but found posts about Eb Alto Horn here on Trumpet Herald. Is this where we all are? Do we need a dedicated forum?



Maybe the moderators can generate under the forum "Equipment" tag a sub-title with a heading of something like "LOW BRASS DOUBLING".

There seems to be an interest. Here is a case in point.
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=148374

I have tried to find a dedicated Alto/Tenor forum elsewhere but I found nothing worth while. There are a few low brass or general brass forums but those I found seem not to be very active.

Back in the day I played an Alto/Tenor horn in a BBB and I very much enjoyed it. Recently I thought I would buy a Tenor/Alto again "just for the heck of it".

But unless my local community bands replace the French Horns with an Alto horn, there is really not much use for it.

And since I now live too far from my back-in-the-day BBB, I bought a Baritone Horn instead as I can use it in the different local geezer bands.

Cheers,
Harry

PS A TH forum member from Great Britain, who is a BBB musician, would be a great moderator for this. Louise come to mind
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Riojazz
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In high school, to fill in for missing French horns, I played various lower horns including a mellophone (the curved kind, right-hand valves, great for jazz), Mellophonium (OK for marching) and an alto horn (nice to blow but useless from the intonation). The first two were in F, the last in Eb. If there were slides to pitch the alto horn in F, they were long lost.

And then there is a Bb bass trumpet (which I've never tried) that is in the same range as a tenor trombone or tenor sax. Names and keys can indeed be confusing.

Trumpet players can double on any of these. A separate forum would be useful.
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bean_counter
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the naming conventions depend upon the location, time period.

British brass band (modern; don't know historical):
Eb = Tenor
Bb narrow bore, bell flair = Baritone
Bb wide bore, bell flair = Euphonium

American brass band (19th century)
Eb = Alto
Bb narrow bore, bell flair = Tenor
Bb wide bore, bell flair = Baritone

American wind band (20th cen)
Eb = Alto
Bb narrow bore, bell = Baritone
Bb wide bore, bell = Euphonium

Perhaps taking liberty with narrow vs wide, but it's probably the easiest way to describe it.

19th century American brass bands wrote separate parts for Bb Tenors and Bb Baritones; the band I play in has several original arrangements that call for Tenor1/Tenor2/Baritone. We have enough players every once in a while.
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robcs
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since the post has been resurrected and I'm new to the forum, I thought I'd pitch in as my first post

Although I live in Canada, I'm an expat Brit, and came up through the silver band (I'm a southerner!) and wind band world.

I sold my vintage B&H tenor horn just before emigrating (and I'm kicking myself! it had a beautiful, almost French-horn-like tone that I can't find in any modern instruments) but until then I had indeed used it as my fallback in practices when my chops got tired. I also enjoyed playing tenor horn for its own sake, however.

One unexpected benefit was that recently when I got myself an Eb cornet (primarily because I've started playing the Haydn and Hummel concertos for my own amusement), I didn't have the pitching problems that many players do when they switch.
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Didymus
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:33 am    Post subject: British vs. American terminology. Reply with quote

I'm American but I find the terminology used by British Brass Bands to make a bit more sense, at least when it comes to naming the "voices".

piccolo
sopranino
soprano
alto
tenor
baritone
bass
contrabass
subcontrabass

Things seem to go a bit.... sideways.... when I consider that the various valved instruments in a BBB are from different brass instrument families or lineages.

A band organized as a true consort of brass instruments would feature instruments from one lineage across all the voices. A saxhorn consort, a cornet consort, a tuba consort, et cetera.

The saxhorn lineage seems to be abandoned in the US & UK, and I will say no more about it, at least to avoid making my rambling post even longer. The cornet lineage contributes the soprano cornet, the cornet, the alto(US)/tenor(UK) horn, and the baritone horn. The tuba lineage contributes the flugelhorn, the euphonium and the two basses in Eb and Bb.

In a proper cornet consort, the soprano voice would be carried by the Eb soprano, and the alto voice actually would be carried by the Bb cornet. The next voice down would have to be referred to as a tenor. Hence the Eb tenor, at least in UK. In the US it's an alto horn and in Mexico it's a charcheta; in other Spanish speaking areas you might see "bombardino en Mi bemol". I have also heard the name "peck horn" used in other English-speaking contexts. Peck as in peck away at the upbeats, like role the charcheta takes in Mexican bandas. Then lower, the Bb baritone horn. I have yet to see bass cornets anywhere. Were they even a thing at any time or in any place?

In a tuba consort, the soprano voice would be carried by an Eb flugelhorn. Those are rarer than hen's teeth. The alto voice is the Bb flugelhorn. The tenor voice? I guess maybe what my fellow Americans will call an "alto flugelhorn in Eb". LOL. The baritone is the Bb euphonium. Then there are the basses and contrabasses below that, more commonly known as the tubas.

To make matters even more confusing, in certain scores the euphonium is referred to as a "tenor tuba". In Spanish speaking areas it's a "bombardino in Si bemol" or just "bombardino", even though it's from a different lineage than the "bombardino en Mi bemol". I do not know what to make of calling a euphonium a "tenor tuba" even though it fills the role of a baritone voice. Nor do I know what to make of certain classical composers asking for "tenor horn in Bb" while writing for an instrument that apparently played in the same range as a "baritone horn in Bb", which is the same range the euphonium operates in even though the two are different instruments in the same manner that a cornet and flugelhorn are different instruments. And then to make it even more head-spinning confusing, I'm told that American instrument manufacturers made instruments in that range which were hybrids of baritone horns and euphoniums.

Not that the BBB terminology is perfect. The Eb tuba and the Bb tuba are both called "basses" even though the first would be the bass voice and the second should be the contrabass voice.

Overlooking that one part, the whole naming system seems to be more sensible in the BBB. It's possible that I'm simply ignorant of the history of my own country's brass band tradition, and that in that context, calling what should be the tenor voice borrowed from a cornet consort an "alto horn" makes perfect sense.

(I apologize for my rambling.)
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