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DNMH Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2009 Posts: 130
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Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:57 pm Post subject: Bach 2 1/2C Mouthpiece Question |
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I have a 3C and a 1 1/2C. The 1 1/2C seems a little wide. What can I expect from a 2 1/2C or 2C?
Thanks |
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mchs3d Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 460
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Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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I play it for the same reasons. You can expect a darker sound with a little more effort, but not as much as would be required on the 1.5c |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8910 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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Do not be fooled into believing that the Bach numbering system is consistent. The number give some general guidance but all the rims and cups vary from model to model. Though it's not perfect, the Kanstul Comparator (Google it) is useful to see the general rim shape and size and also the cup shape and depth.
To my lips the 1.5C isn't differentiated so much by size as by shape. I love the 3C rim but struggle with the 1.5C rim. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8331 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | Do not be fooled into believing that the Bach numbering system is consistent. The number give some general guidance but all the rims and cups vary from model to model. Though it's not perfect, the Kanstul Comparator (Google it) is useful to see the general rim shape and size and also the cup shape and depth. |
Yup.
Way back in the early days of Bach, mouthpieces didn't even have numbers, just names or stars or random markings. Then at some point numbers were given to these models. In some ways, meaningless names and markings would be more accurate than what we have, because it would more accurately reflect the haphazard nature of the sizing.
If you're thinking the 2C or 2 1/2C is between the 1 1/2 and the 3C, don't. They have different cup shapes, different rims, and a different feel. They're not very popular because of that, but they work for some.
If you think the 1 1/2 C is too wide, it might be because of the rim shape. The diameter difference between a 3C and a 1 1/2 C is not much.
You can try a 2C or 2 1/2C, but there are more mouthpiece makers out there, as well. Schilke, Curry, Stork, Warburton, etc... _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8910 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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If you check out the standard Yamaha line you should find that the rim is pretty similar to the Bach 3C. Just which Yamaha piece agrees with your Bach really depends on the vintage of your Bach. The smaller vintage Bach 3C approximates a Yamaha 14B4. Some larger vintage 3c's will feel closer to a 15B4 or 16B4. The reason I mention the Yamaha line is that they do a much better job offering a uniform graduated set of sizes. You can go up from a 14B4 to a 15B4 and expect everything to be the same except the larger ID. And changing cups also largely preserves the rim, totally unlike the Bach pieces. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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alonshofar Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Jul 2005 Posts: 185 Location: Mérida, Yucatán, Mex
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Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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I play Bach 2 1/2C and it has a flat rim compared to 1.5. |
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DNMH Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2009 Posts: 130
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Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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I need you to tell me what to expect in going to the questioned pieces.
For a start, I like the comfort and tonality of the 3C, but it seems a little stuffy at times.
2.5C will ..........?
2C will..............?
Thanks |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8331 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:38 am Post subject: |
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DNMH wrote: | I need you to tell me what to expect in going to the questioned pieces.
For a start, I like the comfort and tonality of the 3C, but it seems a little stuffy at times.
2.5C will ..........?
2C will..............?
Thanks |
Frankly, it's a little hard to say what a piece will be for someone else. Some people love the 1 1/2 C rim or 5C rim and some really don't. Same goes for these two in question.
Both the 2C and 2 1/2C have very large cups - lots of volume. They're both bigger cup-wise than the 1 1/2C, which is sort-of slightly wider with a rounded rim, but has a smaller cup depth and volume. I think they're more like the Bach 1, 1X and 1B, in some ways (not necessarily in rim). The 1C, 1 1/2C, and 3C are sort of another somewhat similar group (though they all have somewhat different rims). Hard to describe because after re-reading that, I wonder...
If you like the 3C but it's stuffy, maybe get one with a larger throat. Or a more open backbore.
Seriously, Bach should have skipped the numbers and just gone with some other system. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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DNMH Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2009 Posts: 130
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:17 am Post subject: |
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Very good, thanks.
I don't want to go darker in tone, just have it take more air. Which is better to achieve this, throat or backbore modification? |
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Al Innella Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 751 Location: Levittown NY
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:26 am Post subject: |
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If you don't want a darker tone,just less resistance,open the throat not the back bore.While the back bore does affect resistance some what,it has more to do with type of sound(dark or bright). Bach's come with a standard 27 throat,so first try a 26 throat for a few weeks.If you still feel too much resistance then try a 25 and so on. Remember you can always take away metal but you can't put it back. |
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gstump Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 934
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:40 am Post subject: |
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The 2 1/2 C is a totally different animal than the 2 or 3C. My teacher, Bruce Revesz, was a proponent of the 2 1/2 C. It is quite dark and was called an "Italian Sound". I have no idea what that means and I am half Italian!
I stuck with the 2 1/2 C my junior and senior year at college. I was coming off a 1C.
When I went to work full time on trumpet I put it away until Annie came in for a first national 6 month run. I played the opening solo on my #65 NY Bach and that 2 1/2 C.
In the 70s there were mostly rock type shows and funk sessions. The sounds were very bright and processed. You almost never played alone.
I got lots of compliments on that 2 1/2 C even from string players. It is a wonderful special sounding mouthpiece very different from its neighbors the 1C, 1 1/2C and 3C.
Best of luck,
Gordon Stump _________________ Schilke B5
Couesnon Flug (1967)
Funk Brothers Horn Section/Caruso Student
Last edited by gstump on Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:29 am; edited 2 times in total |
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alonshofar Veteran Member
Joined: 28 Jul 2005 Posts: 185 Location: Mérida, Yucatán, Mex
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:42 am Post subject: |
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I find these mouthpieces similar Bach 2.5C, Laskey 68MD, Denis Wick 3, and Bach 1X (this one feeling slightly larger rim diameter). |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:56 am Post subject: |
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There is a reason not too many play the Bach 2 series. They have very large cups with a very low alpha angle (undercut) and require very strong chops to control these mouthpieces.
I've tried them all and they require great lip control to keep your aperture from opening too wide.
Their descriptions in the Bach catalogue is quite accurate. The diameter they show is a joke, however.
R. Tomasek
Last edited by Vin DiBona on Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8331 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:03 am Post subject: |
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Vin DiBona wrote: | There is a reason not too many play the Bach 2 series. They have very large cups with a very low alpha angle (undercut) and require very strong chops to control this mouthpieces.
I've tried them all and they require great lip control to keep your aperture from opening too wide.
Their descriptions in the Bach catalogue is quite accurate. The diameter they show is a joke, however.
R. Tomasek |
True.
http://www.bachbrass.com/pdf/AV6001%20Bach%20Mpce%20Manual.pdf
gstump wrote: | The 2 1/2 C is a totally different animal than the 2 or 3C. My teacher, Bruce Revesz, was a proponent of the 2 1/2 C. It is quite dark and was called an "Italian Sound". I have no idea what that means and I am half Italian!
I stuck with the 2 1/2 C my junior and senior year at college. I was coming off a 1C.
When I went to work full time on trumpet I put it away until Annie came in for a first national 6 month run. I played the opening solo on my #65 NY Bach and that 2 1/2 C.
In the 70s there were mostly rock type shows and funk sessions. The sounds were very bright and processed. You almost never played alone.
I got lots of compliments on that 2 1/2 C even from string players. It is a wonderful special sounding mouthpiece unlike its neighbors the 1C, 1 1/2C and 3C.
Best of luck,
Gordon Stump |
Huh. I might have to give that a whirl sometime. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1884
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Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:12 am Post subject: |
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A buddy of mine used to play a Mt. vernon 2 1/2C. The cup was huge, the rim, wide with a sharp inner bite. Don't know if the modern version is similar or not. I did give the 2 (no letter) a blow once. The cup was enormous. Unplayable on a trumpet IMO, but could be useful for specific applications,but not good as a go to mouthpiece. |
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Peter88hg New Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2004 Posts: 5
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Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:08 am Post subject: |
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I've played 2C for many years (in orchestral contexts): - using a Bach 2C top with the 9* Warburton backbore substantially improved sound, and, intonation - especially in higher range.
Might be worth looking at Bach 2.5C and Schilke 17D4 on the Kanstul comparator. Having occasionally played the Schilke 17D4D, as well as experimented with Bach 2.5C, the former mouthpieces seems a somewhat better option - very similar in outline (of cup), with a wider rim and slightly rounder 'bite' than the 2.5 - produces good sound in all registers.
In general, V Bach might do well to produce their 'two' sizes with less constrictive backbores than their standard 10 size - e.g. No. 24, No. 7.
It would be good to know how these pieces work for you, once you've had a chance to try them out over time. |
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Joshua712 Regular Member
Joined: 22 Jul 2016 Posts: 64
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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2.5c is a great mouthpiece! Quite a lot of volume on the cup...a very very "steep" bowl shape. a little deeper than what most might think of as C depth...but most of the volume is due to the shape rather than the depth. Great sound, very full, very thick and solid. Colorful. If someone made that cup shape in a "1" or "1.5" diameter I would buy the heck out of it! |
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jaysonr Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Mar 2015 Posts: 797 Location: Conway, NC
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:23 am Post subject: |
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Joshua712 wrote: | 2.5c is a great mouthpiece! Quite a lot of volume on the cup...a very very "steep" bowl shape. a little deeper than what most might think of as C depth...but most of the volume is due to the shape rather than the depth. Great sound, very full, very thick and solid. Colorful. If someone made that cup shape in a "1" or "1.5" diameter I would buy the heck out of it! |
Josh, I've always thought of the 2-1/2C as a bit of a "smaller 1X". The 1X has a wider rim but at least the examples I've seen of both the 1X and the 2-1/2C the bowls have been similar.
The 2-3/4C is also a very interesting mouthpiece. It's likely the most bowl-shaped bowl you could possibly get! Huge fat sound though! _________________ Isaiah 40:8
3 John 2 |
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chapahi Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 1465 Location: Stuttgart, Germany
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Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:58 am Post subject: |
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I own 2 Bach corp. 2C's. They aren't the same. One seems seems bigger and darker but I prefer the other one. _________________ Sima, Kanstul 1525 Flugel and Kanstul pocket trumpet. Olds Super |
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Joshua712 Regular Member
Joined: 22 Jul 2016 Posts: 64
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Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Jayson, couldn't agree more! The shapes really are different! A lot of geometry that goes un noticed in the bach mouthpiece catalogue!
Tried a friend's Mt Vernon 2 3/4C once, and that thing did have a TON of volume. possibly the largest volume per depth I could even imagine...any more "bowl" to the shape and it would be more like a box! |
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