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Vincent Bach Corp?


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VivaLaTrumpets
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 6:24 pm    Post subject: Vincent Bach Corp? Reply with quote

I was wondering what the MAJOR differences between "Vincent Bach" and "Vincent Bach Corp" mouthpieces are. I saw that someone also inquired about this on Tuesday, however I was wondering why they were much better than the newer Bach mouthpieces. Is it worth buying a vintage 3C if I already play on a new one?
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brassmusician
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The biggest change in the design of Bach mouthpieces was from the older Mt Vernon and New York style pieces to the 'modern' Bach series which includes the different periods you mention - Vincent Bach, Vincent Bach Corp. etc. There is a good webpage which describes how to date the production of different pieces (google). You can investigate the differences between the Mt Vernon and New York pieces and the more modern pieces by looking at the Kanstul Mouthpiece Comparator (google). The Mt Vernon and New York pieces are prized by some players and a number of modern manufacturers have based their designs on them (eg. Curry, Reeves Classic). The vintage designs often seem to have more comfortable rims than some of their modern counterparts, especially the 7C. Interestingly if you look at the Kanstul Comparator some of the vintage designs made it through into the modern collection without much change. Having said all this, it all ends up being what works for you. Trouble comes with the variability in production of the same model down the years. So you might try a Bach Corp. 7C, decide you like it, buy another and find it is quite different. Bach have produced a revival of their vintage designs in the Artisan series which some players have spoken highly of. Could be worth a try.

If you like your modern 3C and it works for you, no reason to try a vintage one. You will be opening a pandora's box for no good reason.
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O00Joe
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prefer "Vincent Bach Corp." Bach mouthpieces, they're the most comfortable and best sounding of all the Bachs I've tried. The "big letter" Bachs are oversized in diameter and cup shape, the new ones are less comfortable and feel slightly undersized, and the Artisan restricts my embouchure noticably (higher alpha angle maybe?).

I've never tried ant Mt. Vernon or New York Bachs so I can't comment on those.
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VivaLaTrumpets
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, I'll try a 7C and see what I think. Any recommendations of good places for vintage mouthpieces, I was just going to use EBay?
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TMT
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corp no dot mouthpieces are essentially Mt Vernon pieces and EVERYTHING about them is different from subsequent eras. Exceedingly comfortable rims with just the right bite, more open and balanced throat and backbores standard (not designated as such), a makeup of brass that resonates like no other. Every one I've played has been remarkable and very few modern copies seem to be able to capture what makes them special. Check out https://www.dillonmusic.com/brass/trumpets/mouthpieces/?mode=grid&limit=100&sort=popular&max=300&min=0&sort=popular&brand=391822&filter%5B%5D=6824
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I acquired five modern 1C's in December because I made the switch AFTER trying a "Vincent Bach Corp. 1C" at a music store one day while trying horns. Only one modern piece feels anywhere close to as good as that one did. I went back to the store and asked to buy it. then I found another of that vintage, and one from the 70's as well. Those three are different than the modern one. They do feel better, they look a little better in the rim/cup area. I think the oldest one does in fact have a different sound.

I kind of want to get one threaded to I can change backbores but feel like it would be bad to change it at all.
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Joshua712
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's some definite differences from a design standpoint for sure. I have a MtV 1.25c copy made by Karl Hammond, and that thing absolutely outplays ANY mouthpiece out there. Night and day difference between that and a modern 1.25C. Every time I tried a new mouthpiece to see if it would play better, I'd play them side by side to a friend who's ears I trust and EVERY time said the Hammond 1.25C was the best sounding without me telling him what was what.

Long story short: Big differences between vintages and also big differences AMONG pieces within the same vintage....kinda like snow flakes!
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rockford
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just because the factory or the font style changed doesn’t mean the design also changed. Bach has been producing mouthpieces for 100 years now. A lot can happen to a mouthpieces after it leaves the factory. Anyway, the main point is that factories and fonts are independent of design features that affect playability.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rockford wrote:
Just because the factory or the font style changed doesn’t mean the design also changed. Bach has been producing mouthpieces for 100 years now. A lot can happen to a mouthpieces after it leaves the factory. Anyway, the main point is that factories and fonts are independent of design features that affect playability.


Theoretically this should be the case, but it isn't. I have a Corp (no dot) model 3C that is nothing like modern versions. It is as wide as a 1-1/2C, and nearly as deep. My buddy has a vertical fraction Corp (no dot) 1-1/2C, a Corp (no dot) 1C and a Corp. (with the dot) 1-1/2C. They are nothing like their modern counterparts in rim and cup design.

I recently tried a Corp (no dot) 5B cornet piece. It had a C-style cup. Same friend gave me a Corp. (with dot) 5B that has a more C-style cup and a modern 1C-style rim than a modern 5B, which has a much more of a typical Bach B cup and a softer bite. The Corp. 5B hurts to play.

Unfortunately, the changes in font and stamping seem to coincide with changes in various design aspects.

If Selmer had actually adhered to Bach's designs and kept the tolerances, then what you say should be true.

But we are having this discussion for a reason.
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scottfsmith
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Few generalizations can be made about Bach mouthpiece design evolution. About the only thing that seems to hold is two mouthpieces made at a similar time likely have more a similar bore profile than ones made further apart in time.

TMT wrote:
Corp no dot mouthpieces are essentially Mt Vernon pieces and EVERYTHING about them is different from subsequent eras.


For the 7C this is not true, the major design change was around the change of Mt Vernon to CORP (no dot). At that point in time the design became a completely different mouthpiece which should have been given a different name. After that major change the design evolved in relatively minor ways. I have two Mt Vernon and two CORP 7C's and these four pieces fit this pattern, both CORPS are radically different from the MtVs. I have a dozen more modern 7Cs of all the different marking periods which show relatively little evolution from the CORP design (different enough to have a strong preference for in playing, just not a complete re-design as in the MTV to CORP).

I am not as familiar with the other models but expect each has its own unique evolution path of large and small changes.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curry makes a line of mouthpieces based on earlier Bach mouthpiece designs. I play his 3C. (a copy of a MT. Vernon 3C) and it's a much better mouthpiece than the more modern Bach 3C. Take a look at his website - they aren't too expensive and may be a good alternative to chasing used Bach mouthpieces.
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rockford
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s important to remember that Bach started out as a custom mouthpiece maker and evolved into a larger producer. Equipment evolved and became more reliable after WW2 and Bach production stabilized in standard models. Bach continually was looking for improvement and would make a slight rim modification to one model but not another. A good little piece of evidence is a tag in Bachs handwriting attached to a “1960 model” 7C. He never marketed the difference in the product or notated the difference. There is usually substantial overlap in design changes vs. factory changes or font changes and it takes looking at dozens of samples to get a sense of what’s taking place. Some of the good current custom makers build great “Bach” NY or Mt. Vernon mouthpieces, but which one? Probably a hand selected mouthpiece that they perceived as a particularly good one or from a serious player wanting a reproduction of their favorite Bach mouthpiece as a backup. But it may not be exactly like your personal favorite. Some discrepancies are due to the equipment of the times and others are intentional design changes or modifications for a particular customer. The fonts a factories don’t tell the whole story.
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boog
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My no-dot 3c Bach from the late 60's is one of my all-time favorites for comfort and sound spread. My second favorite 3c Bach is one of the "big letter" (I call them "bill board" Bachs) from the early 2000's. My favorite repos are the ACB "3" series tops, which have the advantage in that you can change the backbore sizes to suit a particular trumpet. In actuality, after playing for an hour or so, it's hard to tell the difference in feel among all these cups.

For a normal practice session, I tend to grab the first one mentioned. I can certainly understand the popularity of this size mouthpiece.
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nowave
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I purchased a Corp (no dot) 3C from frisco1227 on eBay (see other current thread about this seller). It's an excellent piece with a great feel and sound.

This seller always pitches the 1965-69 pieces as being made with "the same cutters and blanks from the Mt Vernon era" and having a bit more mass at the cup (specifically, a "taller vertical rim") than later pieces. Can anyone else with more Bach pieces from different eras verify this? The only other Bach piece I have at the moment is a much newer 1.5C and it does indeed seem to be lighter and with less mass at the rim. Maybe the difference in weight (if indeed there is one) is part of the appeal of the older pieces?
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TMT
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely! As I said before, the makeup of the brass on pieces from the early 70's and before is wildly different from what most makers use today, and it resonates differently. With all due respect to previous posters, the variation in Bach mouthpieces has been well-documented on this site and others, both in the day-to-day (which employee happened to be operating the cutters and how they chose to align them or how far they pushed them in), the fact that the mouthpieces regularly changed as the cutters wore out and were replaced, the fact that new cutters were only approximate copies of what came before. Not to mention outside blank, and therefore mass of the piece, was wildly different even from pieces in the same period.

Of the Kanstul MTV replicas I own, every one of them is VERY close to each of my corresponding Corp no dot mouthpieces. Closer than ANY other vintage after. But the copies lack the weighty resonance of the original.

I played two mouthpieces in college, 1.5Cs from the 80's and 90's respectively. I am currently playing one from the early 70's that is different in every way. The bite is defined and articulation is better, the rim is more comfortable, the backbore is less restrictive without being very different in size from a modern 10, and the stock throat is about a 26. I bought this piece from a guy who bought it new and stock, it isn't some random custom piece. The 1.5Cs I played in college left my mouth bruised because of the round rims and the stuffy way they backed up my horns, but I stuck with them because of the dangerous fallacy that it wasn't the mouthpiece, it was me. "A 1.5C is a 1.5C" is wrong and you can completely ruin a student by not being aware of this fact.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TMT wrote:
As I said before, the makeup of the brass on pieces from the early 70's and before is wildly different from what most makers use today, and it resonates differently.


A supposition, but based on?

Sure different metals resonate differently, but so do different cups, backbores, blanks... Since those pieces from different eras seem to be different in one or more of those aspects, I find it difficult to assume the tone is different just because of the metal.

It would be interesting to see metallurgical analysis of the various vintages to check for differences, but I'm not willing to pay to have my vintage mouthpieces be chopped up and analyzed.
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DH
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many may know of this, but there's a pretty good summary of the lettering at the Bach Loyalist website

https://www.bachloyalist.com/bach-mouthpieces-lettering-variations/
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trumpet_cop
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:
TMT wrote:
As I said before, the makeup of the brass on pieces from the early 70's and before is wildly different from what most makers use today, and it resonates differently.


A supposition, but based on?

Sure different metals resonate differently, but so do different cups, backbores, blanks... Since those pieces from different eras seem to be different in one or more of those aspects, I find it difficult to assume the tone is different just because of the metal.

It would be interesting to see metallurgical analysis of the various vintages to check for differences, but I'm not willing to pay to have my vintage mouthpieces be chopped up and analyzed.


Different metals resonate and respond differently. Why do you think mutes have different bottoms? Same with bells.. I read a story once the when Renold Schilke was starting out making instruments he tried several different metals for bells and even had one made out of lead.

Not to get too Kirk like here but... Why do you think people search for "pre-war" Bessons? Because the brass used then was different than post war brass. Parts of that could also be based on standards and regulations for manufacturers who produce brass and other alloys for these purposes, so based on THOSE ideas I would absolutely believe that the makeup of the brass used in the Mt. Vernon era, 60's, 70's and even 80's is different than today.
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet_cop wrote:
Tpt_Guy wrote:
TMT wrote:
As I said before, the makeup of the brass on pieces from the early 70's and before is wildly different from what most makers use today, and it resonates differently.


A supposition, but based on?

Sure different metals resonate differently, but so do different cups, backbores, blanks... Since those pieces from different eras seem to be different in one or more of those aspects, I find it difficult to assume the tone is different just because of the metal.

It would be interesting to see metallurgical analysis of the various vintages to check for differences, but I'm not willing to pay to have my vintage mouthpieces be chopped up and analyzed.


Different metals resonate and respond differently. Why do you think mutes have different bottoms? Same with bells.. I read a story once the when Renold Schilke was starting out making instruments he tried several different metals for bells and even had one made out of lead.

Not to get too Kirk like here but... Why do you think people search for "pre-war" Bessons? Because the brass used then was different than post war brass. Parts of that could also be based on standards and regulations for manufacturers who produce brass and other alloys for these purposes, so based on THOSE ideas I would absolutely believe that the makeup of the brass used in the Mt. Vernon era, 60's, 70's and even 80's is different than today.


Thank you for the thoughtful response.

I am well aware that different metals resonate differently. I have aluminum, copper, fiber and wood mutes for a reason. I have read Schilke's paper, The Physics of Inner Brass and the Acoustical Effects of Various Materials and Their Treatment, and found it interesting.

Here it is: https://web.archive.org/web/20050207211240/http://www.dallasmusic.org:80/schilke/Brass%20Clinic.html

I do not contest that various materials have different properties.

However, my issue is more with the implication that the "wildly different" brass alloy is solely responsible for the resonance qualities of older pieces when there are far more critical differences between them, such as two "Corp" 3C examples I have played, one with a cup more like a 1-1/2C and the other more like a shallow 10-1/2C. A modern Bach 10 backbore is, for me, hideous. Matt Frost cut his MTV backbore, which is a copy of a Mt. Vernon era 10 backbore, into my 3B and it's amazing.

It's a bit unreal to assign so much weight to one aspect of vintage pieces when it is also well known that their design and dimensions weren't even consistent.

I appreciate that you are supporting your position with previous studies, rather than just stating something as a fact with no real support. My contention is that the resonances of the older pieces have less to do with the metal than the overall designs. For example, I have Wick, Crown and Jo-Ral aluminum straight mutes. All aluminum, different dimensions. The Wick sounds pretty neutral, the Crown is quite loud and the Jo-Ral sounds weighty, almost like my copper bottom Crown straight. Same material, different designs.

A worthy but expensive experiment would be to copy a vintage piece entirely (blank as well) into more recent brass, gold brass, and other alloys and test them against the original. It would eliminate all the other variables. Any takers?
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Irving
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't generalize about Bach mouthpieces from different periods. I have found dogs among the corp. models as well as the Mt. Vernons. Which isn't to say that there weren't any gems that came out at the time. I have 4 Mt. Vernon 7Cs. Each one is different. If you are convinced that a certain model from a certain period is what you want, you might be disappointed. Try first. I have moved on to the German maker Josef Klier, or JK. I like their copies of Bach mouthpieces better than The originals. Go figure.
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