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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:32 am    Post subject: Deleted Reply with quote

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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:25 am    Post subject: Re: Lip/facial muscles recover time between RO/RI exercises? Reply with quote

Harry, at the risk of sounding disagreeable, I do not accept your basic premise here regarding "recovery time." I'm sure that it makes sense to you, but it has little bearing on the BE universe, or the trumpet universe in general. In practice, things don't work in a specific way that lines up with a particular theory of recovery.

Let me comment on your points one at a time.

The BE book suggests 2 or 3 times per day for the RI exercises.
This is incorrect generalization. In the beginning, when first learning to roll in, the exercises often feel strange. Since students - particularly adults - are eager to learn this new feeling, I give them "permission" to do the first RI exercises up to 2 or three times, at different points in the day. But that is only in the early stages, and only for RI 1. In practice, none of my students, past or present, do the whole set of RI exercises more than once per day. If a student wants to do them more often, then fine. But it is not generally necessary.

Let me get the cliche answer out of the way first: Go by what you feel.
If I would go by "what I feel" I would have been over trained a majority of the time. So "going by the feel" can give misleading answers.


This is the crux of your perspective. You are extremely left-brain dominant. Like virtually all left brain dominant people, you likely have poor context skills, particularly in regard to body awareness. To compensate for this, you tend to rely on statistics, and concepts like "optimum recovery time."

The problem is, in the field of embouchure development, there is no such thing as optimum recovery time. Different players experience different recovery time. There are general guidelines, such as "rest as long as you play," and commonly given advice such as "don't play on tired chops." But there are no specific commands about recovery time which apply to everyone.

Jerry Callet used to play the RO 1-4 exercises up to 10 time per day, every day, for weeks at a time. My students often play the full set of RI exercises every day for months at a time, without contraindications. And many of them are middle school kids.

In general, "going by how you feel" from day to day, is not a "cliche answer." It IS the optimum approach, especially for players who have the body awareness to follow that path. If you don't have much body awareness, you can develop it, but that is a subject for a different book.

All that said, your initial question is a reasonable one:

I am trying to get a ball park feeling as to what the lip/facial muscles recovery period is between RO/RI exercises?

My advice to you, as it would be to any student, is to go down a path and find out. After trying several routines, students usually settle on one that seems to work the best. Some do everything every day. Some alternate between a light day and a heavy day. Others do the exercises every other day. And yes, this routine will likely change over time, as you gain more coordination.

Hope this helps, or at least gives you a different perspective.

Jeff
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:13 am    Post subject: Deleted Reply with quote

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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry, you have mischaracterized my answers as being full of fear and frustration. In an attempt to give you the most helpful answers, I've done my best to offer you a different perspective, and you have twisted my feelings and intent. The fact that you completely reject my perspective, doesn't mean that I will not offer the same perspective to the next overly left-brained person who simply wants to hear only the answers that he will agree with.

Contrary to your beliefs, I'm fine with you disagreeing with me. This isn't the first time that someone has rejected my advice. I have said many times that strongly left-brain dominant people tend to have the most difficulty in grasping the principles of BE, as they tend to interpret things too literally and get lost in the details. I get your rejection. But your interpretation of my psychological state is complete BS. You are missing a bigger picture.

BTW - I tend to be left-brain dominant myself, so I am not adverse to statistics. I simply accept a different set of statistics than you do, and they are codified in my own experience of 40 years of teaching trumpet, and in my work with cutting-edge techniques designed to help people who are physiologically out of balance.

Jeff
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:41 am    Post subject: Deleted Reply with quote

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trumpetteacher1
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Location: Garland, Texas

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry Hilgers wrote:
If an "overly left brain dominant" person only wanted to hear answers he/she agrees with, it would be illogical for them to ask the question to begin with and therefore not ask it.


Now you are contradicting yourself. However, I can't show the contradiction since you deleted the post.

Harry Hilgers wrote:
Actually I have a very clear picture of the BIO-PHYSICS of BE, why it works and why I will continue working with it. I simply posted my questions to get a better feel for some typical values of the parameters in the "equations". As I said before the "BE Universe" and "Trumpet Universe" are still part of the "Physics universe".


You've made this point now twice. However, you have not made a single post which has shown how my approach is not part of the physical universe.

Your idea of growth, and what allows growth, comes down entirely to your belief system. You don't own physics. In a personal lesson setting, I can prove beyond all doubt that my approach reflects the underlying physics of learning the trumpet, and also illustrate how a one-sided left-brain-fits-all approach is limited in effectiveness.

Harry Hilgers wrote:
I have glanced over many BE posters posts from the past and have come to the conclusion that some other "overly left brain dominant" BE players understand the physics as well, but they have seen the futility of bringing this up on your forum.


That pretty much sums up your bias. It's called confirmation bias, Harry. I deal with fellow left-brainers all the time. Somehow, it works, and more often than not.

Jeff
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:33 am    Post subject: Deleted Reply with quote

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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see that you have posted again, even though you deleted the previous post where you said that you would not post again.

I answered your question, in great detail. You didn't like the answer.

You seem to forget the pejorative statements you made in your previous posts, to which I responded. Of course, those statements were deleted as well.

And finally, your idea that physics (or science in general) is completely separate from belief and biased interpretation, is a fantasy in itself.

Jeff
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry . . give it a time out.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Harry . . give it a time out.



+1!
As a matter of fact I’ve found out that the BE method has provided me with an acute awareness of the daily variations of the state of my chops. Every method must be used in a sensible way - on page 137 Jeff Smiley states that ”this is not one-size-fits all”. In other posts I’ve have expressed as my sincere belief that I’m fundamentally opposed to fundamentalism and I find not even a grain of fundamentalism in the book - on the contrary one of my first impressions of the book was that it was written in such a humble and non- judgemental way.
You gotta practice in a way that suits your specific chops; in my experience (I’ve played regularly in bands since 1958) there’s always a risk of over -use ( been there having had done that) at least for (us) amateurs.Nevertheless you must stretch the boundaries...
I’m a rather sceptical guy, I do not believe in panaceas - nothing beats hard work, analysis, subjectivity tamed with common sense.
Beware of secterism and BE is not about that.
Left or right - the chops are in the middle.
So Harry - please learn how to evaluate the state of your chops.
Some days, when I am in the playing season I can do all the roll ins starting on high C 3 times or more on a day + plus all the stuff including practicing big band scores, tricky passages with my cornet in the brass band scores etc. As of today in the middle of my vacation I’ve problems doing roll ins once starting on G. Or reframing it the old way ” garbage in garbage out”
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