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jadickson Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 1294 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Lou. As far as age, I wouldn't start someone until all of their permanent teeth are in. Do you know if her permanent teeth are all in? At least in the front? _________________ Justin Dickson
Middle school band director. Still learning.
www.BandmateTuner.com |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5461 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Justin
Obviously I don't know about the OP's daughter, and my own daughter is in the clarinet rather than cornet group, but my daughter has had her eight front adult teeth (and four 3rd double teeth, although this is probably irrelevant) since around the age of seven, but some children are later, as I had no top front teeth on my age 7 school photo.
Take care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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GordonH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:43 am Post subject: |
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I am not a teacher, but years ago a friend who was told me that one of the biggest limiting factors on young kids was the 7C Bach mouthpiece. He felt the bite was too sharp and started all his kids on a 5C. He felt that the narrower rim actually helped reduce pressure naturally. Maybe so. That was his experience anyway. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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jadickson Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 1294 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:27 am Post subject: |
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Sorry Lou for some reason I thought you were the OP.
My spring break just started and I have been trying to turn my brain off for a few days. Apparently it is working. _________________ Justin Dickson
Middle school band director. Still learning.
www.BandmateTuner.com |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5461 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:40 am Post subject: |
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jadickson wrote: | Sorry Lou for some reason I thought you were the OP.
Hi Justin
No worries.
My spring break just started and I have been trying to turn my brain off for a few days. Apparently it is working.
Sounds good. I wish that I could turn mine off sometimes. I seem to have the type of brain that doesn't want to stop on the rare occasions that I have a break.
Take care
Lou |
_________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:29 am Post subject: |
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GordonH wrote: | He felt the bite was too sharp and started all his kids on a 5C. He felt that the narrower rim actually helped reduce pressure naturally. |
Am I reading this wrong? I thought that a 5C had a bigger diameter than a 7C. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1720 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:42 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | GordonH wrote: | He felt the bite was too sharp and started all his kids on a 5C. He felt that the narrower rim actually helped reduce pressure naturally. |
Am I reading this wrong? I thought that a 5C had a bigger diameter than a 7C. |
I read it as narrower in the sense of less-broad profile rather than in the sense of smaller diameter?
Would make sense to me that way, but I suppose it's easy enough for people to be thinking of different attributes when using words like "narrower" "wider" "bigger" "smaller" (etc) when talking about mouthpieces where these words could refer to several different things. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8910 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:06 am Post subject: |
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FWIW Though they do trend larger as the number decreases, I think the biggest difference between Bach pieces in this range is rim shape rather than ID. I find the 7C and 5C to be similar with a pronounced bite. I find the 6C, 3C and 1.5C to be similar with less bite.
Given a choice, I'd probably start a young player on a Yamaha 11C4 or 11B4. I find them to be easier on the chops.
I'm not sure about the prospect of starting a player quite so young. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2660 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:53 am Post subject: |
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delano wrote: | Nobody knows. You have to start somewhere. |
This.
You have a horn and a mouthpiece. Use it. If there is a REASON to change to a different mouthpiece, then by all means do so, but until then, what's the problem?
FWIW, we start all our kids on 1 1/2C mouthpieces, which are a fraction larger than a 7C, etc. The kids have no problems. We are talking about factions of a MM here, and a flatter, rather than more cutting rim, folks, not a bucket v. teacup.
Whenever a kid buys his own horn and starts playing on the bog standard POS mpc supplied, they always state it feels better to go to a 1 1.2C, more open, easier to blow notes, more comfortable on the lips. Similarly, kids new to the school get a 1 1/2C to try and almost 100% end up on it.
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5675 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:05 am Post subject: |
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I'd go with the traditional stock mouthpiece provided with the majority of student model trumpets - the 7C.
We can get into all kinds of this and that about this size or that size, but at the end of the day, no matter what, if the kid practices they are going to adapt to it.
For those who say that it's "too big" with either a 7C or even a 1.5C, remember, there are young kids starting on trombone and tuba too - the kids will adapt. Those of us who have been playing a while have preconceived ideas about mouthpiece size, but that's only because we've already adapted to a particular size based on a number of parameters or requirements.
For a kid, it's all new, and those sizes are neither too big, nor too small to adapt to. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8910 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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I can't help but believe that the range of mouthpieces available reflect that these are the sizes that have proven to be of use. And that statistically the largest and smallest available worked for a diminishing number of players to the point that going bigger or smaller didn't make much sense. With that in mind, I can't see how anyone would advocate for starting players to use equipment near either extreme. Trumpet makes very specific demands of the player. It doesn't matter that some folks play trombone and tuba, and I'd hazard that they sure as heck wouldn't succeed using those mouthpieces on a trumpet.
I agree with a sentiment made by Jens Lindemann that large mouthpiece are in many ways more forgiving for basic tone production but I don't think that alone make a good argument for starting everyone on them. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Justin_Smith Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2005 Posts: 212 Location: Oakland, CA
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Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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delano wrote: | Nobody knows. You have to start somewhere. Buy a (cheap) Yamaha 11B4 (very good mp), not too big, not too small, certainly not deep (most of the 7C's are too deep for a beginner) so that makes an inexpensive and very reliable start. If the kid get some chops you can see. The problem with deep is that it invites for learning the wrong things. |
I prefer to start my young beginner students on these as well. Yamaha 11B4 over a Bach 7C. It is a little shallower and a more comfortable rim. There are usually tons of them available for cheap new and used on EBAY.
Justin Smith _________________ Justin J. Smith |
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Sean_E Regular Member
Joined: 15 May 2018 Posts: 13 Location: Florida
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:55 am Post subject: |
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great thread! I think players younger than middle school will likely need smaller than 7c, unless they have physically bigger lips than average. I have a 5th grader that just had his first lesson with me and is playing a 3c. It came with the Jupiter horn his parents bought for him. I handed him my CalletDT10 and everything about his playing was better including tone. Obviously this mouthpiece is the opposite end but I do believe we will settle somewhere around a bach 9-10.5 _________________ -=iii=< |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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It's a smaller number but it is not a smaller diameter.
On one side of the spectrum, a #2 is a larger diameter than a # 10 1/2. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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jondrowjf@gmail.com Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2016 Posts: 652
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:38 am Post subject: Mouthpiece sizes |
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Have her try out the 4C, 5B, 5C, trumpet mouthpieces. _________________ No musical instrument at this time. |
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Betelgeuse215 Veteran Member
Joined: 20 May 2015 Posts: 186
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Bach 5C |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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The Marcinkowicz 7 is a good one, very comfortable and relatively easy upper register. The Yamaha 11B4 is also very good, cheap and widely available. |
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iiipopes Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2015 Posts: 545
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Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:41 am Post subject: |
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Like everything else, has anybody suggested finding a teacher who is trained to fit horns and mouthpieces? My best friend, before he was called into ordained ministry, has his B.M.Ed., taught school bands, and focused on beginning band and the proper fitting of instruments and fitting mouthpieces accordingly.
A few years ago, after being away from upper brass for quite a few years before that, he helped me choose a proper mouthpiece to "come back," helping me avoid the usually expensive mouthpiece safari. Yes, out of curiosity, I did purchase several of different brands and sizes otherwise, out of sheer curiosity after hearing about them for all these years. I sold most of them, and have a few on my shelf.
Yes, find a teacher who actually focuses on beginning players, and does not automatically say to get the teacher's favorite just because. _________________ King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:25 am Post subject: |
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If John Monahan sees this - now that it's been said that the new 10 1/2C is larger than the old one, which are you referring to? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Curry mouthpieces are consistent and reasonably priced. His standard line is based on selected examples of Mt. Vernon Bachs. You couldn't go wrong with a Curry 10.5C or 8.5C.
http://www.currympc.com/index.php?id=47 |
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