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Systematic Approach and busy schedule.



 
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Stanislav234
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:34 am    Post subject: Systematic Approach and busy schedule. Reply with quote

I've practiced Balanced Embouchure system for quite a long time and my embouchure is pretty settled now. And i don't know why, but i decided to stop doing this method. It was probably an influence of John Mohan posts, all of them somehow resonated with me. And i'm going to have a couple lessons with him in the near future.

Also i've stabilized my K-Tongue Modified and it don't feel that awkward anymore. So, i decided to to order Systematic Approach book and start practicing it. But after first session i realized that it takes a LOT of time and by adding all of my additional stuff (Iron's, Clarke, Arban, Bolvin's Tongue Level) it becomes almost impossible to put everything in one practice session. How do you cope with that? I just don't have that much time. 2-3 hours in one session is maximum.

I don't find anything unimportant in SA, so i can't reduce session length. Holding notes till empty is one of the basic elements of this method and they are pretty much the reason why it takes that long. But if we don't hold them till out of breath, we are not going to get as much benefits as we can. Here is dilemma.

Maybe i should try Maggio System? It doesn't imply these long notes and can be done in shorter period of time, and as i know, Claude Gordon teachings is based on Maggio. Only problem is that i don't like the fact that Maggio insists to play with prescribed embouchure setup which is very unnatural of me (my lips is rolled-in all of the time, more or less.)

What is your opinion on this?
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Pete
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe John will chime in. I used this years ago and still have the book. You need to follow the format of the book including the rest time he indicates.

Don’t mess with your chops if they are working. There are many different perspectives on getting to the same result. And if you are going to study with John, why not ask him?

Pete
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Stanislav234
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, i'm not trying to change anything that written in SA book, because it will not lead me to any good place. I've sent him a message maybe month ago, asking for help with KTM. He gave me some helpful, good advice, we talked a bit about Skype lessons and that's it. Of course we can talk about it, but lessons is too expensive for me now, i have to save some money for it. I think following SA is very complicated thing and can't be clarified in couple of messages.

My chops are working more or less correctly and Jeff Smiley method helped me a lot. But i'm getting a feeling that this approach is not right thing for me to do, especially after learning KTM technique which, as i feel, will work better with more open aperture. All of the exercises in the book started to feel "wrong", like i'm missing some more simple and straightforward. But i have nothing against Jeff Smiley, his teaching was the great way to understanding how the lips work.
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RussellDDixon
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charley Davis book "A Tribute to the Teaching and Routines of Bill Adam" is a wonderful book with actual Adam Routines that include Herbert L. Clarke; Schlossberg; Long Tones, Double & triple Tonguing as well as various scales.

http://www.balquhiddermusic.com/brass-studies/tribute-to-william-adam-davis

The Maggio System for Brass is a "range" book with pedal tones throughout; however, there are no "technical" studies.

I have several Claude Gordon books as well as The Maggio System for Brass.
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The issue boils down to what are your goals and what are you willing to sacrifice to attain them?

I used SA on my own for about a year. In that year, I improved quite a bit, but then there was a lot of room for improvement.

Then, I kind of hit a wall and I wasn't sure if I was doing everything correctly. So, I started lessons with Jeff Purtle. Having gone it alone and taken lessons, I can tell you that the way to go is to take lessons. I suppose there are a rare few who can figure things out on their own, but apparently, I'm not one of the few.

I get it; lessons are expensive. In addition, lessons aren't going to do you any good unless you devote some serious time to practice. There is a pretty strong correlation between how well (not just how much) you practice and how much you improve.

There isn't any way around it. Either you need to take the time to practice and get lessons, or you need to settle for modest goals. If you are just a hacker who has no aspirations to playing or sounding professional, more modest goals isn't necessarily a bad thing. But you are deluding yourself if you think that you can sound professional without lessons and serious practice time.

Warm regards,
Grits
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Speed
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a similar experience to that of the OP until I started talking lessons with a CG disciple. The assignments include things out of the Gordon books, plus Clarke, Arbans, Colin, Irons, etc. It's a wide variety of material, but with a teacher organizing it, my practice sessions are kept at a duration I can live with.

I am aware that the boilerplate advice on this site to pretty much any problem is to "get a teacher," but it really is good advice. With Skype and Facetime, you can do it from anywhere.

Take care,
Marc Speed
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:48 am    Post subject: Re: Systematic Approach and busy schedule. Reply with quote

If you don't have the time, there's plenty of ways to hit on the exercises without doing them in their entirety.

The easiest way is to break the routine into multiple days by skipping lines.

For example, on the down routine, you can do:

Day One - C, Bb, Ab, F#, E, D, C etc.
Day Two - B, A, G, F, Eb, Db.

Same thing for range studies, clarke studies etc.
That basically cuts the routine duration in half.
Just make sure you ARE alternating each day and covering all the keys.

If it's still too long, you can take it further and do:
Day 1: C, A, F#, Eb, C etc
Day 2: B, Ab, F, D
Day 3: Bb, G, E, Db.

Alternatively, a lot of the Up and Down studies can be sped up, simply by adding an extra octave. So instead of going C in the staff to low C and doing a long hold, and repeating that on each half step descending until you're at Double Pedal C, you can extend it from C in the staff down to Pedal C, then go on down.
That cuts the exercise in half, as you'll get to pedal C in half the time.
Same going up. Instead of going pedal C to C in the staff and moving up chromatically, extend it an octave and go from pedal C to High C and ascend chromatically.

Either strategy will reduce the time commitment considerably, but will make sure you're still hitting on all of the material.

Edit: Fixed confusing instructions


Last edited by Trumpetingbynurture on Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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Stanislav234
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This way of practicing seems interesting. What is your experience with SA lesson broken into multiple days?
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It works fine and it's better than not doing them.
I would make sure you stick to each routine for two weeks (which is advisable if you're on the first pass through even if you're doing the full routine everyday).
And make sure you aren't cheating and leaving out hard keys etc.

Try it for a fortnight and see how you go.
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Stanislav234
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, i'll try this!
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: Systematic Approach and busy schedule. Reply with quote

Stanislav234 wrote:
I've practiced Balanced Embouchure system for quite a long time and my embouchure is pretty settled now. And i don't know why, but i decided to stop doing this method. It was probably an influence of John Mohan posts, all of them somehow resonated with me. And i'm going to have a couple lessons with him in the near future.

Also i've stabilized my K-Tongue Modified and it don't feel that awkward anymore. So, i decided to to order Systematic Approach book and start practicing it. But after first session i realized that it takes a LOT of time and by adding all of my additional stuff (Iron's, Clarke, Arban, Bolvin's Tongue Level) it becomes almost impossible to put everything in one practice session. How do you cope with that? I just don't have that much time. 2-3 hours in one session is maximum.

I don't find anything unimportant in SA, so i can't reduce session length. Holding notes till empty is one of the basic elements of this method and they are pretty much the reason why it takes that long. But if we don't hold them till out of breath, we are not going to get as much benefits as we can. Here is dilemma.

Maybe i should try Maggio System? It doesn't imply these long notes and can be done in shorter period of time, and as i know, Claude Gordon teachings is based on Maggio. Only problem is that i don't like the fact that Maggio insists to play with prescribed embouchure setup which is very unnatural of me (my lips is rolled-in all of the time, more or less.)

What is your opinion on this?


Oh - oh. You let me influence you....

This has to be a quick reply because I'm just taking a break from mowing the lawn.

It takes me about 8 minutes to do Part 1 of Lesson Two and about 7 or 8 minutes to do Part 2 of Lesson Two in the Systematic Approach book (this is not including the 15 minute rest between the two parts - I usually do dishes, vacuum or perform some other chore during that time). Note that you only hold the last notes "until all air is gone and longer" in the Part 1 Pedal note arpeggio exercises. In the Part 2 section where you go up high you should just hold each last note for about 3 or 4 beats - just long enough to make a slight crescendo on the last note of each exercise.

Claude wrote Systematic Approach in the late 1950's near the beginning of his teaching career. Over the years he modified his teaching approach quite a bit as he gain more and more experience. One of the main things he did was he slowed the rate at which students' daily practice routines increased in time spent practicing and general difficulty of the material to be practiced. Plus, I think there was a certain amount of marketing savvy in creating "A FIFTY-TWO WEEK TRUMPET COURSE DESIGNED TO DEVELOP A REGISTER FROM THE SECOND C BELOW LOW C TO C ABOVE HIGH C, ALONG WITH THE POWER, ENDURANCE, SOUND AND CONTROL NECESSARY TO MEET THE DEMANDS REQUIRED OF THE PROFESSIONAL TRUMPET PLAYER." I think Claude attempted to fit about 3 or 4 years of development (and practice material) into that 52 week trumpet course.

If you've got 45 minutes a day available I can put together a well-rounded practice routine for you that will cover the basics, including flexibility, tone development, power, endurance, range and technique development. The routine does tend to grow in length over time, but it doesn't have to become radically long to get great results.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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Stanislav234
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your explanation! I did't know that upper notes shouldn't be held until the air is gone. But on the level of intuition it seemed counterproductive for me, because i've always thought that holding high notes for too long can cause too much temporary tension in the embouchure (correct me if i'm wrong).

Actually, most of my concerns about CG method came from this long 1 hour rest that still counts as practice time. It's easier for me to play the horn with couple 10-15 min. rests in one session and then do my chores/work/whatever.

I have about 2-2.5 hours that i can invest in practicing, so there is no need for very simplified routine. But i still will be very happy if you help me build correct and balanced routine for my case. I hope i'll be able to take couple of lessons with you in the first days of August.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stanislav234 wrote:
..... i've always thought that holding high notes for too long can cause too much temporary tension in the embouchure (correct me if i'm wrong)....


It caused me to pass out and wake up on the floor on top of my nice Bach C trumpet. Bummer.
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Stanislav234
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now i know that holding long notes without proper physical conditioning can be expensive too.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely not supposed to hold the last note of an up routine for more than a few counts. Generally the point is just to get a 'grip' on the note a bit, or to do a small crescendo.
This is why you have to read the instructions!
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Stanislav234
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, this makes practice time a bit shorter. After two days of practicing SA i've noticed that it doesn't take much time. Everything fits in 2.5 hours (including all my daily trumpet stuff. Not counting 1 hour rest.)
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