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Pushing the tongue forward through the teeth while breathing



 
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Jon_Manness
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:37 pm    Post subject: Pushing the tongue forward through the teeth while breathing Reply with quote

Hey BE crew!

First, I wanted to say hi to the group and say how helpful this community has been by reading old posts while working out of the BE book for over a month.

One post of Jeff's that I read was about James Morrison sticking his tongue through the teeth while corner-breathing. (The post was technically in the Callet forum, but Jeff chimed in).

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37798&sid=cf243c548c6d8e46b455c2b0597b9484

Quote:
Jonas, I completely agree about Mr. Morrison's lip position. Anybody can clearly see that he is rolled in and puffed, both common to the BE experience.

But the tongue situation is much trickier to correctly evaluate. Many players - MANY players - push the tongue forward through their teeth when they breathe. There are two or three different reasons why they do it, which I won't cover here. However, when they resume playing, the tongue moves back inside the teeth.


I adopted this breathing setup to help pull down my upper-lip and spread it into the cup, and I absolutely love the sound and response I get doing this. (I have a somewhat short upper-lip and big front teeth). The concept of pulling-down the upper-lip is something I never thought about until I read BE and started practicing TOL and Zips. What a game-changer!

I'm curious if other BE players use this breathing setup and can talk about how it affected their playing.

-Jon

P.S. I'm just getting started on BE, but I'm absolutely blown away by the results and have never felt more confident on a gig!

Jon
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Jon, and welcome to TH!

Wow, you are really doing some digging. That was a very old thread, and SUPER left-brained. I had long ago forgotten about it. Glad to know that I give consistent answers from year to year.

You said, "I adopted this breathing setup to help pull down my upper-lip and spread it into the cup, and I absolutely love the sound and response I get doing this. (I have a somewhat short upper-lip and big front teeth)."

That is exactly correct. It is one of the main reasons for setting up with the tongue forward which I alluded to in the old post. If you have a short top lip, this technique is crucial to adopt, and less so if your lips are of average length.

That said, I don't know what percentage of players use it. If folks want to chime in, please do.

For readers here, Jon modestly says he is a beginner to BE, but he is also a very accomplished player in the LA area.

Jeff
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Nos Mo King
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1 on the use of the tongue and for TOL and ZIPS!

Just a note on Morrison's set up; If you have access to "The James Morrison Way" tutorial video, (probably on you tube by now) the chapter on 'Range' there is a fantastic close up on his setup that demonstrates the OP's description and discussion. Those close up shots should dispel any disputes about Morrison's roll in and use of the tongue.

Although I have yet to LCS and make a note (sorry Jeff I am still a failure at this) via the way described in the book, the BE method was/is a musical life changer for me. I continue to see improvements with my playing as a direct result of the exercises. I recommend this book to ALL trumpeters.

Best to all,

RC
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Jon_Manness
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Russ,

LCS was the main reason I ordered BE. Even before reading the book, I knew my chops were rolled out too much and weren't vibrating as efficiently as they should. I started squeaking my lips as an experiment and looked on the web to see if any trumpet players talked about this as an exercise. The first video I saw was on Spasstrompeter's YouTube channel, which is where I first heard the term "Lip Clamp Squeak" and led me to BE. (Side note: my squeaks don't sound like Spass's. Mine are way more focused and squeakier, and start around high C and expand outward by an octave or more in each direction.)

I do LCS throughout the day, which annoys the crap out of my wife and friends, but it helps!

-Jon
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Nos Mo King
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha ha...yes I do LCS all day too! I am able to play dbl and triple -quad notes ( I would describe them as notes, but nothing I would put out to the public and try to pass as music) after I set the mouthpiece to the lips...but have never been able to LCS and then set the mp to the lips and generate a tone. At least not as prescribed in the book. It is like I am doing the LCS in reverse. Place the mouthpiece to lips, use the tongue to roll lips in and together, and then play virtually any note I can hear with a fairly full tone.

Oh well. I keep trying to do the proper LCS so I can eventually do the exercises, but such is life. I still am getting a tremendous benefit from BE, but probably not the most that is possible.

Not complaining, just explaining....

Best, RC
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Larrios
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,

I also use the tongue to set up this way and I also have a short upper lip relative to the top teeth.

After breathing and attacks, my tongue almost always stays connected with the bottom lip, which helps me with stability (and it's a smaller distance to move it for TOL).

Nos Mo King wrote:
have never been able to LCS and then set the mp to the lips and generate a tone. At least not as prescribed in the book.


Try it from an air hiss instead. Re-read the instructions on page 83. Some do use the squeak to start the RI, but it is unnecessary. With the squeak, the lips are often clamped too tightly to generate a pitch with the added resistance of the horn. Relax the clamping until you get a rolled in air hiss and try it like that. It should be a lot easier to get a note to speak this way.

Ko
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Nos Mo King
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, KO! Jeff advised me of the same thing...seems I need to hear something a dozen times to register. I have worked at both the squeak the the hiss; will keep at it..my hiss only starts when I roll out to my normal emboucher and lose the old man look. Well, I still have the old man look but I digress.

I have the rest of my life to get it so will keep at it. I know the benefits will be worth it when I can finally do the exercises properly. That's my motivation.

BTW, Jon, WELCOME to TH! Thanks for the OP and responses....

RC
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Jon_Manness
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Russ! Definitely appreciate the support from you, Jeff, and everyone here!

For what it's worth, I focus more on the hissing sound by rolling in and engaging my abs. I don't worry about how my face or lips look (I know my lips feel rolled-in, even if there's still plenty of lip showing). Visually, it may not be textbook BE, but I've been getting great results by approaching the RI exercises this way.

-Jon

Nos Mo King wrote:
Thanks, KO! Jeff advised me of the same thing...seems I need to hear something a dozen times to register. I have worked at both the squeak the the hiss; will keep at it..my hiss only starts when I roll out to my normal emboucher and lose the old man look. Well, I still have the old man look but I digress.

I have the rest of my life to get it so will keep at it. I know the benefits will be worth it when I can finally do the exercises properly. That's my motivation.

BTW, Jon, WELCOME to TH! Thanks for the OP and responses....

RC

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AndrewS
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mystery still remains why they stick out the tongue when they breath.
Yes I can clearly see it with many prominent players like James Morrison or Adam Rapa.
I wonder if it helps them create a proper lip alignment, the right amount of gap between the teeth or the right aperture (or all of the above).
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a mystery. It's all of the above, as you said.

See pages 17-18 in BE book, "Using the tongue to monitor lip position."

The tongue provides a target for focusing the lips. For some players, this is critical.

Jeff
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AndrewS
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
See pages 17-18 in BE book, "Using the tongue to monitor lip position."

The tongue provides a target for focusing the lips. For some players, this is critical.


Thanks, Jeff, for the confirmation. I know the text by heart!
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