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Endurance with Rock Bands


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trickg
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My primary gig since 2001 has been in wedding dance cover band.

I'll say two things:

1.) First, welcome to my world of mic'ed and amped trumpet playing.
2.) There is no "good" solution - almost everything is going to be a compromise, but in-ears and having some control over your monitor mix will help tremendously.

In my band, we've used digital mixing boards for a while now - ever since Presonus released the Studio Live series. We are currently using a Behringer X32. This gives me the ability to control my in-ears monitor mix with an app on my phone, and I have individual control over the master volume (which is different than the volume knob on my pack) and the volume of all tracks in the mix. Since we went to this setup, it has been markedly better, but it will never be ideal.

Good luck to you!
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Lawler Bb
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

plp wrote:
Best move our band (15 piece rock cover band) ever made were these.

https://pro.bose.com/en_us/products/loudspeakers/portable/l1_model_ii.html

No more monitors, no more amps. We have 2 of these behind the band, so we hear what the audience hears. As they come with a noise canceling feature, even though they are looping into the mics, feedback is a thing of the past.


I don’t doubt you, but I can’t figure out how this works. Do you use these as your monitors and use a FOH PA in front of the band, or do the Bose do it all? Can’t see how they would have enough power for a 15 piece band, either.
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plp
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don’t doubt you, but I can’t figure out how this works. Do you use these as your monitors and use a FOH PA in front of the band, or do the Bose do it all? Can’t see how they would have enough power for a 15 piece band, either.


The Bose system is both our primary drivers, and the monitors for everyone, to hear how they are coming through the mix. Like I said, what we hear, is what the audience hears, because of the canceling feature, there is no feedback. And allows us to adjust accordingly.

To a point.

With a wind instrument, there is necessity to get immediate feedback. I keep one ear open to hear myself, have another ear to the speakers, and the reason I said, I moved the horn section to be flanked. It cleans up so much, we don't get looped in the vocalist's mics, can hear ourselves, and it reduces the load on the processors, so they are not having to filter us out of the neverending loop.
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Speed
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In looking at the Bose system, it seems pretty limited on inputs. Do you use a separate mixer that runs into the Bose system?

Thanks,
Marc Speed
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mm55
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

plp wrote:
Like I said, what we hear, is what the audience hears, because of the canceling feature, there is no feedback.
There is no "cancelling feature" in the Bose L1 systems (at least it's not mentioned in any of their literature), and squealing feedback can definitely be a problem with these systems, as with most live sound systems, if too much gain is used.

Being a line array mitigates feedback issues with the L1, because it behaves as a line-source, rather than the point-source behavior of most speakers. But that does not completely eliminate feedback.
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Last edited by mm55 on Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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mm55
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speed wrote:
In looking at the Bose system, it seems pretty limited on inputs. Do you use a separate mixer that runs into the Bose system?

Thanks,
Marc Speed

Yes, you need a separate mixer for higher numbers of inputs. The system shown in the link above only has a single general-purpose analog input channel (although it supports a two-channel stereo input signal).
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'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
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Lawler Bb
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Joined: 27 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

plp wrote:
Quote:
I don’t doubt you, but I can’t figure out how this works. Do you use these as your monitors and use a FOH PA in front of the band, or do the Bose do it all? Can’t see how they would have enough power for a 15 piece band, either.


The Bose system is both our primary drivers, and the monitors for everyone, to hear how they are coming through the mix. Like I said, what we hear, is what the audience hears, because of the canceling feature, there is no feedback. And allows us to adjust accordingly.

To a point.

With a wind instrument, there is necessity to get immediate feedback. I keep one ear open to hear myself, have another ear to the speakers, and the reason I said, I moved the horn section to be flanked. It cleans up so much, we don't get looped in the vocalist's mics, can hear ourselves, and it reduces the load on the processors, so they are not having to filter us out of the neverending loop.


What musicians need to hear on stage in their locations versus a FOH mix for the audience are two very different things. No doubt it works for you guys, but I’m still completely baffled. And, how can two little “line arrays” produce enough sound to cut through the band and produce a usable mix our front? Kudos for finding something that works! I run a 9 piece band and if I could get by with this, I would seriously consider it. I just don’t know how. How do you have enough low end reinforcement? We use a minimum of two 18” subs with 2000watts (JBL SRX) and often use way more of we’re outside.
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Speed
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I have not personally seen the Bose system in use, a band mate who is a guitarist has spoken highly of a band he saw using one. That band was your basic bass, guitar, keys, drums and female vocals, with no horns; AND perhaps more importantly, they were playing in a casino where loudness is highly monitored by the management.

My guitarist buddy spoke with the band about the system, and one of them commented that their contract with the casino specified that there could be no amps on stage, and that at no time could the volume level exceed some certain level at a stated distance from the stage. Apparently a casino employee checks the volume level with a decibel meter numerous times during the performance.

I'm intrigued by the Bose system, but I have lots of questions about it. I wonder if it is sufficient for a large venue, particularly if it's a high volume gig.

I am also curious about whether it deals with feedback any differently from a traditional system, i.e., with some sort of EQ adjustments, although perhaps with some automation like the Peavey "feedback finder" system (which actually works reasonably well).

Take care,
Marc Speed
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plp
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Joined: 11 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lawler Bb wrote:
plp wrote:
Quote:
I don’t doubt you, but I can’t figure out how this works. Do you use these as your monitors and use a FOH PA in front of the band, or do the Bose do it all? Can’t see how they would have enough power for a 15 piece band, either.


The Bose system is both our primary drivers, and the monitors for everyone, to hear how they are coming through the mix. Like I said, what we hear, is what the audience hears, because of the canceling feature, there is no feedback. And allows us to adjust accordingly.

To a point.

With a wind instrument, there is necessity to get immediate feedback. I keep one ear open to hear myself, have another ear to the speakers, and the reason I said, I moved the horn section to be flanked. It cleans up so much, we don't get looped in the vocalist's mics, can hear ourselves, and it reduces the load on the processors, so they are not having to filter us out of the neverending loop.


What musicians need to hear on stage in their locations versus a FOH mix for the audience are two very different things. No doubt it works for you guys, but I’m still completely baffled. And, how can two little “line arrays” produce enough sound to cut through the band and produce a usable mix our front? Kudos for finding something that works! I run a 9 piece band and if I could get by with this, I would seriously consider it. I just don’t know how. How do you have enough low end reinforcement? We use a minimum of two 18” subs with 2000watts (JBL SRX) and often use way more of we’re outside.


It has a subwoofer for each array as part of the system, and believe me, is plenty, plenty loud enough.

And yes, have a separate 24 channel mixer for the band, that then goes into the little box, which is also a 4 channel mixer. We run a separate 12 channel mixer for the drums, which she can control her own balance, run the kick bass directly into the main 24 channel so the band leader and bass player can control that, and sometimes (depending on the venue) run a separate 12 channel for the vocalists.

Those 'little line arrays' have 180° sound coverage and we have yet to run the main volume past 4 in performance. We've found the lower you keep the main volume, and adjust master volume on the board, the cleaner the sound.

We have tinkered for the past 8 months to get this all figured out, and for 90% of performances set volumes and mix during the sound check, and never touch it again.
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Since all other motivesfame, money, power, even honorare thrown out the window the moment I pick up that instrument..... I play because I love doing it, even when the results are disappointing. In short, I do it to do it. Wayne Booth
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plp
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you can tell, I'm a big fan of this system, urge everybody to go to your nearest dealer and check it out for yourself.

I was a bit skeptical when our leader first proposed buying it, as it is a bit pricey for the two arrays we bought, but feedback (a CONSTANT problem with our old system) is a thing of the past and that alone is worth the cost.

By removing amps from the setup, we avoid the bane of every horn player, the dreaded death spiral where the electric guys and gals are convinced they aren't being heard, so keep turning up. I've had times in the past when I just quit playing, nobody could hear me anyway.
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Since all other motivesfame, money, power, even honorare thrown out the window the moment I pick up that instrument..... I play because I love doing it, even when the results are disappointing. In short, I do it to do it. Wayne Booth
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