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Creating Counter Melodies



 
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:21 am    Post subject: Creating Counter Melodies Reply with quote

What’s the best way to create a counter melody in trad or Dixieland ensemble playing?
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After weeks of looking for a good book on this subject I just found it, “Creating Jazz Counterpoint” by Vic Hobson who goes into detail about how early players created counter melodies in trad, barbershop, and blues.

I got it as a Google eBook.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this the one you're referring to?
https://www.amazon.com/Creating-Jazz-Counterpoint-Barbershop-American/dp/1496807782/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1531671185&sr=8-1&keywords=creating+jazz+counterpoint
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NMex
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Amwq43-lrM
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That’s the book.

And that Wynton YT is great!
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NMex
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to be very familiar with the melody. Very familiar. Extremely familiar. That's the most important thing. You should listen to everyone you can that sings and plays the particular song. You should be able to sing the song yourself. You can practice singing harmonies to the melody. It all starts with the melody, though. If you're not very familiar with the melody, you will become lost in the changes. Practice with a backing track and stop playing for several measures, then come back in, so that you know the changes from any point. You might need to save yourself or one of the other players in your ensemble at some point.
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Mario
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NMex wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Amwq43-lrM

That shows that Wynton adds counterpoint, but does he show how he's doing it? Does he answer the OP's question?

A basic rule is when the melody moves, you stay out of the way; when the melody is in repose, you fill in. This also can be applied to dynamics.
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jazz_trpt
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listen to the bands you're trying to sound like, and do it that way.

Someone's already invented the wheel...
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NMex
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
NMex wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Amwq43-lrM

That shows that Wynton adds counterpoint, but does he show how he's doing it? Does he answer the OP's question?

A basic rule is when the melody moves, you stay out of the way; when the melody is in repose, you fill in. This also can be applied to dynamics.


I'm sorry if I wasn't more clear in my previous post. I remembered seeing that video on youtube some number of years ago. I thought it was at least relevant to the OP's question. I then expanded upon my original post. I have to admit, I don't understand the tone of your response.

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Mario
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adam.arredondo
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I make a living mostly playing early jazz in New Orleans, so there's a lot that I could say about this subject but I'll try to just briefly go over a couple of key points that I think are worth emphasizing.

There needs to be space for countermelody
Kehaulani brings up a good point about filling in when the melody is repose, but whoever is playing the main melody needs to play enough longer duration notes and/or rests to allow for a counter melody to play moving lines to fill in. Equally as important is that the rhythm section needs to leave space in the texture for countermelodies. If the drummer is "dropping bombs" and the pianist is playing fills every other measure, the texture can easily get overcrowded. Collective improvisation is a group effort that requires the entire band's help to facilitate it.

Follow Sousa's example
The roles of the trumpet, trombone, and clarinet in early jazz were mostly based on the roles they had in marches for wind band: trumpets played the melody in mostly quarter and eighth notes, trombone played countermelody below in mostly half and whole notes, clarinets played obbligato above in mostly eighth and sixteenth notes. In this way each section gets their own sonic space with minimal clashing.

Check out Jabbo Smith and Omer Simeon on Sweet 'N Low Blues (especially starting at 0:42).
I think this works largely because (1) Jabbo's lines are much faster than Omer's, (2) they are playing in different ranges, and (3) the total effect mimics conversation. Gunther Schuller even transcribes and analyzes this bit in Early Jazz (click page 210, scroll down to page 212).



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