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Caruso's, Maggio's, and Reinhardt's Assertions



 
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gabriel127
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:39 pm    Post subject: Caruso's, Maggio's, and Reinhardt's Assertions Reply with quote

From reading literature by Caruso, Maggio, and Reinhardt there seems to be a common assertion that if a person can produce a high note of poor, weak quality, they can eventually develop their chops so that those poor squeaky, musically unacceptable notes can eventually be part of the person's playable range.

For instance, Reinhardt has his "squeaker" routines where a person practices notes in a squeaky fashion until they "lock in" as squeakers and then they try to put some sound behind them. There's a quote of Maggio in Carlton MacBeth's book that says, "It's a baby Sonny, but it will grow."

There's also something to that effect in Caruso's teaching whereby you practice those interval routines of his and he apparently encouraged people to play as high as they could and keep going until no sound is produced and not to worry if they sound terrible on the very top notes because eventually they won't sound terrible.

And we all know that sometimes if you can slur up to a note either scalewise or with arpeggios, it's one thing to do that, and it's totally another thing to be able to tongue up to the same notes, or even harder still, to double or triple tongue up there.

My question is, what can a person practice in order to get those squeaker notes to be legitimate notes that are part of one's playable range? Are there any particular routines that can hasten that progress?
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Pete
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best thing to do is not use excessive pressure in the upper register. Sometimes easier said than done. And if I am not mistaken, the squeakers are produced with a good embouchure setting as accomplished by the the individual
method you are using.

I'm sure others have more advice and chops than I do.

Pete
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Chaser
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have three paths you can go down.

One: you can manipulate your chops (rolled in lips, Superchops, et. al.) to produce notes in the upper register and practice until it becomes second nature.

Two: You can place a stress on your chops, generally though chromatic ascent (Maggio, Caruso, Gordon), endurance exercises, and boatloads of lip slurs, and let your chops develop strength and endurance through adaptation (to the demands being placed on them.)

Three: You can do both at the same time (The Balanced Embouchure, learning a new setting and working to incorporate it into your normal feel while still developing your normal chops.)

I know guys with great range, power, and endurance who have done it each way. Throughout college and after my first layoff, I had great success with number 2 (Gordon and then Caruso.) This comeback, I am going with 3 (BE and Caruso/Gordon) to see if I can learn a more efficient embouchure to try and keep daily maintenance down to 45 minutes to an hour.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Caruso's, Maggio's, and Reinhardt's Assertions Reply with quote

gabriel127 wrote:
From reading literature by Caruso, Maggio, and Reinhardt there seems to be a common assertion that if a person can produce a high note of poor, weak quality, they can eventually develop their chops so that those poor squeaky, musically unacceptable notes can eventually be part of the person's playable range.

For instance, Reinhardt has his "squeaker" routines where a person practices notes in a squeaky fashion until they "lock in" as squeakers and then they try to put some sound behind them. There's a quote of Maggio in Carlton MacBeth's book that says, "It's a baby Sonny, but it will grow."

There's also something to that effect in Caruso's teaching whereby you practice those interval routines of his and he apparently encouraged people to play as high as they could and keep going until no sound is produced and not to worry if they sound terrible on the very top notes because eventually they won't sound terrible.

And we all know that sometimes if you can slur up to a note either scalewise or with arpeggios, it's one thing to do that, and it's totally another thing to be able to tongue up to the same notes, or even harder still, to double or triple tongue up there.

My question is, what can a person practice in order to get those squeaker notes to be legitimate notes that are part of one's playable range? Are there any particular routines that can hasten that progress?


Some trumpet players have range limitations and some have volume limits on their high notes. Your post mentioned 3 of the handful of famous experts from the 20th century. I would have added Roy Stevens to that list tloo. Even though I dont use much of his approach personally.

I imagine that even those inclined to squeak their first high notes will eventually develop their volume more. And others who get good volume initially may find that they have a lower ceiling of sound than their squeaker peers.

Having a good mouthpiece for high notes seems to usually be the most helpful. Keep it comfortable, shallow as you can play today and have the throat/back-bore professionally opened to around a number 22 to 24 throat. For a bigger sound. Standard number 28 throats are fine for classical work but for lead playing they produce way too much edge in the tone.

In the extreme upper register the conventional wisdom usually needs to be dumped. As a shallower piece on an open throat/rim produces the biggest, most resonant tone. Usually. There are few absolutes.

Why kill yourself? The cat who can spend more time in the upper register is the one who progresses the most quickly. I can't tell you how many lead trumpet gigs Ive pulled away from kids who still use large mouthpieces. And yet many, maybe even most of them stubbornly cling to this old advice for life.

As per Caruso? He was a woodwind player. Reinhardt played trombone. Only Maggio actually played the trumpet.

My earliest studies of high notes were from Maggio edited by Carleton Macbeth and I found them helpful. This however was due to the fact that I'm a more receded jaw trumpet type. We often respond well to pedal tone practice.

Others like forward jaw types? May find that pedals hinder the process. Reinhardt was emphatically against pedals. As was his peer Roy Stevens. I admired both men more than the other two. As at least for me a physical science approach has always been best. However at least so far I haven't been able to help many others through science by itself. Perhaps using psychology to assist a person gain insight into physical science might sorta "open the back door entrance".

And the Caruso system has (from my experience!) Produced more high note squeakers than any other system around. With apologies to Caruso advocates in advance here... But...

In my 63 years on earth I've noticed more "squeak artists" coming from the Caruso system than all the other high note systems and gurus combined. In soms ways this is a positive. Not a negative. As those who can play soft high notes can always use amplification. Lol one of the guys I chat with sometimes, an East Coast pro described a mutual acquaintance and a leader of the Caruso system as,

"Having an upper register that just barely 'leaks' out the end of the bell of his horn" double LOL.

And I know this guy and agree. First time I heard the described bugler I noticed that he stuck his bell very close to the microphone. And in a club where most sound men would not even amplify me. However the man played stunningly well and still does. He just can't get a solid forte on anything above high C. This is not always the experience of the Caruso system. And in some ways isn't even a negative characteristic. As at least Caruso produces well trained high note artists. In fact when I think about it? Caruso seems to produce more high note playerz that I've noticed than any other system. The common volume limitation may not even be due to the method (although it may be) but more due to trumpet playing physiology in general.

Because cats who can really make double C's explode on stage are rare. From any method.
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Last edited by Lionel on Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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boog
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Caruso's, Maggio's, and Reinhardt's Assertions Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:

Because cats who can really make double C's explode on stage are rare. From any method.


Indeed.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Caruso's, Maggio's, and Reinhardt's Assertions Reply with quote

gabriel127 wrote:
My question is, what can a person practice in order to get those squeaker notes to be legitimate notes that are part of one's playable range? Are there any particular routines that can hasten that progress?

I believe becoming attuned to the mechanics of how you get higher is the most important element.

On the "squeaker" notes you're just barely meeting the requirements to get them to come out. I find that working on trying to keep things oriented toward a big sound as I ascend helps. Try playing any note you can hit comfortably and observe what happens as you play it louder - what do you feel changing to facilitate this? Playing higher notes bigger has the same requirement.

I also find that a subtle raising of the horn angle - very subtle - helps. What this translates to of course is the amount of jaw protrusion. You have to experiment. The mp pressure distribution top lip vs bottom lip has to be right as well.

For example, play scales ascending and get louder as you ascend, big full note on the top. Go up a half step, repeat.
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gstump
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always associated "squeakers" with embouchure manipulation. Fundamentally I feel the Caruso method is the opposite of manipulation to get the note out no matter what.

One of the reasons Mr. Caruso eliminated removing the mouthpiece during rests and breathing through the nose was to keep things relatively the same as you go up and remove resetting the embouchure. He felt this eventually would lead to more accuracy.

I never associated finishing the interval phrase regardless of the tone as manipulate and squeak out the pitch. This does not answer the OP's question. Only his/hers assumption that Caruso's "ignore the way it sounds" means "squeak out that note"!

Regarding the other methods mentioned, I have no idea!

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Last edited by gstump on Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:30 am; edited 2 times in total
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion, and please feel free to disagree, I believe there is a difference between quiet but resonant frequencies and squeaks that are nothing more than vaguely pitched air with no actual vibration occurring.

From my own experience, and also watching, studying with and playing alongside some fantastic professional lead players; there has never been any support for practicing 'squeaking' (like the latter description) and the unanimous advice has always been to find the highest note than you are able to play resonantly, and develop very slowly upwards from there.

Obviously there are some players who actually switch over and use a different system to play in the extreme upper register (I have heard that Derek Watkins used to do something similar) but the same principle applies; building (even very softly) from a resonant starting point can yield great results but simply squealing away, even if you think you are holding a constant pitch, is very unlikely to help anything since, logically, you are only practicing squealing and not practicing a resonantly produced tone.

I recently did a project on lead trumpet. My warm up routine is pretty short, which gave me an opportunity to listen to the second player warming up/messing around. Every rehearsal he would sit and play a few scales, ending at the top and then 'squealing' up an octave. He basically continued the practice until everyone was ready to play, usually ending up squealing pitches around a double C. Obviously it was a bit irritating for all the musicians around him, but (perhaps contrary to his intention) served actually to outline his limitations. It was clear that above about a high D this player (who is a lovely guy no mistake) resorted to squealing the pitches, and any bystander could hear that there was no vibration (or resonance) in those notes. He asked for some advice after the gig, and I (only because he had asked) told him that the 'sqeak' warm up probably wasn't going to improve his useable range. He brought up that Maggio quote so I asked him how long he had been 'squeaking' those notes for, he replied '10 years' and had not experienced any tangible improvement in the sound at all. I then asked him how did he go about developing the strong high C/D he had, the guy looked somewhat surprised 'Well just the usual stuff; playing up scales and keeping a good sound etc.'. So my suggestion was that it was the latter method that had actually proved successful and that, really, those 10 years of squeaks had not given him anything useful at all.

Just my opinion and experience. Very happy if people disagree and I hope that nothing I have said offends or upsets anyone; I respect that everybody has their own beliefs and that we are all individual!
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pepperdean
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carmine's saying was, "Where there's smoke, there's fire."

The only experience I have with Maggio is that I bought Carlton McBeth's book when I was in high school and fooled around with it a bit. I can speak personally to Carmine's and Doc's teachings. BTW, Jerry Callet gave me "thin" high notes and extremely loud pedals to practice.

The teachings of both Doc and Carmine were to make the student a better player throughout all registers of the horn. They were not high note methods. However, Carmine said higher notes required a higher degree of embouchure balance. His analogy was bike riding. As you learn to ride, you experience moments of shakiness or crashing until your muscles learn (as a reflex) to balance. Each repetition provides the nervous system with data that leads to balance. His exercises have you ascend until you lose balance and experience failure. With each failure, knowledge is gained and you get closer to a higher degree of balance. With improved balance, tone, endurance, range, articulation are improved.

I spent much more time with Carmine than Doc, but I don't remember the squeaker routine as being something that was supposed to eventually grow into loud notes.

Wishing you success,
Alan
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:
I believe there is a difference between quiet but resonant frequencies and squeaks that are nothing more than vaguely pitched air with no actual vibration occurring.

At the risk of being a pain - if there's a squeak, there's vibration. It may not be generally useful in the realm of playing trumpet unless you want the effect for some reason, but there's vibration. What I think you're getting at is there's a difference in the mechanics of achieving a "squeak" and a full-bodied, usable note.
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
'At the risk of being a pain - if there's a squeak, there's vibration. It may not be generally useful in the realm of playing trumpet unless you want the effect for some reason, but there's vibration. What I think you're getting at is there's a difference in the mechanics of achieving a "squeak" and a full-bodied, usable note.'


No, not being a pain at all! You are absolutely right that for there to be any sound there must be vibration. And yes, I was trying to point out that a there is a difference between a 'resonant' frequency being produced, wherein both the lips and the trumpet are vibrating sympathetically to one another (in the same manner as a strong 'resonant' tone in the middle or lower register), and a 'squeak' whereby the player can cause a tiny fast vibration in the lips which is simply 'amplified' by the trumpet, rather than causing the trumpet to vibrate properly (and sympathetically) in response.

It follows that continuously practicing the latter will not, in itself, lead to the achievement of the former.

I hope that makes some sense and I am more than happy to be contradicted. These forums are a great place for discussion and for the refinement and development of our own ideas and concepts! Thanks
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:
It follows that continuously practicing the latter will not, in itself, lead to the achievement of the former.


You are, of course, absolutely correct, in the way you stated it. Just repeating squeakers will not, "in itself," necessarily lead anywhere. The trick is to know how to grow those squeakers into something useful, and that takes more than simple repetition.

BTW - for someone with 5 posts, your observations have been impressive so far. Welcome to TH.

Jeff
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A part of me really likes to promote the physical science approach. For the simple reason that if the teacher or observer can correctly diagnose an inefficient embouchure usage? Then it stands to reason that the teacher can could then direct the trumpet player to a most minor embouchure (or wind related!) adjustment. Bingo! The trumpet player might add a fifth or maybe an octave to his range virtually instantaneously. In fact I've actually seen and heard such dramatic change a number of times. It's a great feeling both for the learning trumpet player and his coach

The problem with using physics however seems to be that most trumpet players are hesitant to work with it. Let alone incorporate the ideas. I think that we like to play music, even exercises too. But to actually sit through a whole book like Reinhardt or Stevens-Costello seems to turn off many trumpet players. Reinhardt was complex. Stevens at least equally so and probably more. Plus Stevens tended to work well for only a limited fraction of trumpet players. It's true! I don't want to say that I "wasted several years" chasing down the Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique book. Because even in failure we learn. But at least as written Roy's work was not such a good system for me. Oh dear I'm writing too much again. Sorry!

That said? I think that physics can be very helpful. The problem adapting to it however seems to be twofold,

1. The trumpet player attempting to adopt the new system needs to be a good candidate for the particular embouchure involved. Otherwise he might spend a futile twenty year adjustment period trying to pound a "square peg into a round hole".
2. This good candidate needs patience, perseverance, and common sense. And if it still doesn't work out? Have the humility to either try something different or quit the new method altogether. Returning to that which had always worked fairly well for him/her before.

And this is why I'm more of a mouthpiece kind of fellow today. There exists a powerful tendency (in oldtimers such as myself!) to say to the young fellow,

"Just tongue and blow".

Back in the 1970's there was an oldtimer out of New England. He by the name of "John Coffee". A trombonist by trade the man found himself teaching all the brass instruments. Out of the NE Conservatory. With a friendly yet ruthless emphasis on breathing. And doggone it? He had many successful students. Many trumpet players flocked to him like he was the "anointed one". Again the mantra he hammered onto his students,

"Just tongue and BLOW"! Simple huh?

My feeling is that if I could bring a better set of mouthpieces into the game? Like a series designed to be comfortable. With shallower cups but with huge throat/back-bore combinations? Then promote the breathing "dogma" of Mr Coffee? Hey, it could really happen. As Ive seen marvelous results with breath support/mouthpiece emphasis. Incidentally,

Mouthpiece customization + air support and stance was Maynard's personal "system". It may not turn everyone into the old man himself but it surely helps greatly. Helped me a ton anyway.
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