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Learning KTM is a struggle



 
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mathgeek
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:33 pm    Post subject: Learning KTM is a struggle Reply with quote

I have been at it for about two months and I still am not getting it right. My articulation are still dull and my range is still capped at high Bb, B, or C, depending upon the day.

I know I need to keep practicing, but it is extremely frustrating and I am getting tired of sounding like crap in my lessons. Apparently I am just a slow learner.

What was everyone else’s experience? Am I taking an extraordinary amount of time or is this more of a typical experience?
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LaTrompeta
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

May I ask why you are so intent on learning it?
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never worked for me either.
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solo soprano
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It took me a good 6 months to get the feel.

Is this how you understand KTM?

First a word about tongue placement. Say the syllables "aw - eee - aw - eee" and you will notice that the tip of tongue stays behind the lower teeth.

The tip of the tongue should not be anchored rigidly behind the lower teeth, since the tongue must be allowed to float up and down into the correct level for each note. Let the tongue tip go where it needs to go but no higher than the very top of the bottom teeth.

The tip, then, should be placed lightly behind the lower teeth, by the top of the teeth, not down at the gum line.

The front center portion of the tongue moves forward to make the attack against the upper teeth.

==============================================

"My articulation are still dull and my range is still capped at high Bb, B, or C, depending upon the day." mathgeek

To produce a clear attack, a responsive lip and a fast air stream are the most important elements. While there will be those who disagree, the tongue, in and by itself, does not make a sound. It is rather, the immediate vibration of the lip that produces the the first attack, and the interruption of the wind by the tongue that causes the lips to stop for a split second and start again, that produces succeeding attacks.

To develop a good tone delivery try practicing the "HEE" attack. Here's how it's done: moisten the lips and press them together. (Not pinched.) Take a big breath and blow, striving to make the attack with no tongue as clear as you can. The air stream must be fast, like a bullet.
Then when you add the tongue to this type of blowing, you will have a clear attack that has full sound.

==============================================

"my range is still capped at high Bb, B, or C, depending upon the day."

Many players blow hard. Some know the value of finding the tongue level. But few realize that the embouchure contracts as you ascend. Embouchure contraction is the action of the muscles surrounding the lips that hold the lips in place so they will vibrate. These muscles draw toward the mouthpiece as you ascend and relax , or draw away from the mpc. as you descend.

Best Wishes
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Last edited by solo soprano on Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LaTrompeta wrote:
May I ask why you are so intent on learning it?


I wondered this too. And my other question is I'm wondering who your teacher is. My original teacher had trouble communicating the concept to me and I didn't get it until many years later.
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
LaTrompeta posted:

May I ask why you are so intent on learning it?


Speaking for myself, practicing this technique is the most effective one I have found for mastering double and triple tonguing. I'm no expert on the subject, but it seems to me that it strengthens the muscles required to double and triple tongue. It also improves muscle memory and coordination. If you are one of those people for whom double and triple tonguing came naturally, good for you. For me, double and triple tonguing are a real struggle.

Warm regards,
Grits
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best tonguing advice I've ever heard came from Peter Bond. He says to articulate exactly like you speak.

I've told that to countless people, and it always helps.

I know that's not CG advice, but hey . . .
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Sailors wrote:
The best tonguing advice I've ever heard came from Peter Bond. He says to articulate exactly like you speak.

I've told that to countless people, and it always helps.

I know that's not CG advice, but hey . . .


This has been my experience as well.

I tried KTM for a while and loathed it, so I'm back and quite happy with my natural tongue position, which is located precisely where I speak.

As I understand it, the principal advantage of KTM tonguing is it keeps everything far forward which makes extreme upper register playing and articulation easier. But since I can already get my tongue level up without resorting to KTM, and can articulate all over the horn, why mess with it?

Understood that KTM works for some, but it sure didn't do anything for me.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If taught correctly by a competent teacher, KTM usually starts working within 3 or 4 weeks. I've never had a student who learned KTM from me and ever wanted to go back to the old way. I have had some who were doing it correctly and thought they weren't or tried to overdo it (pushing their tongues against the bottoms of their back teeth all the time, even when sustaining notes, or not allowing their tongues to rise up and all from the very bottom area of the back teeth) that had trouble, but with proper guidance they got through it.

When properly developed, KTM doesn't just help the upper register, it also speeds up articulation speed and cleans up articulations in all registers, because there is much less tongue movement and the tip is never up in the way of the air stream.

It's really not as radical as it might seem to be, and I think that might be one reason folks don't successfully learn it when trying it on their own. Sometimes they try too hard and are too radical with it and without the help and guidance of a competent teacher, they end up giving up on it.

And no, I'm not writing this to troll for students, it's just the truth.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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mathgeek
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am learning this because that is what is required. I think the problem I am having is that the exercises I have been assigned to develop this tonguing style are too difficult for me yet. I have to think about more than just tonguing while i am playing. I have decided to simplify things and just focus simple exercises. I am still working on my lessons too, but I needed to step back a bit a really focus on getting a clean attack. It’s coming along, but until I get this down better, my progress is kind of stuck.

Back at it tomorrow!
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a video that may help you:
https://bolvinmusic.com/k-tongue-modified/

Eb
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JVL
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello

i discovered it, almost 2 years ago by case, automatically as a sane body action, after decades of TU or TA tonguing.
I asked advices to John Mohan & the late Mcgovnor, to earn time, and their advices helped me very well for transition.

You just have to take time, be patient and concentrated when you're practicing.
For me it'a more efficient technic for tonguing.

best
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Philippe S.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, It simply takes a bit of time.... stick with it and set small goals!
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