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the embouchure muscles



 
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject: the embouchure muscles Reply with quote

having always practiced 6 days a week i have switched to 7 and am doing well without the rest day.
i am a lifelong weight trainer and lift 3 days a week needing the rest between sessions.
why are the embouchure muscles good for exercising every day? the only thing that makes sense is that they are very small, and don't tax the body's ability to deliver blood and nutrients very much. with your large weight lifting muscles groups, that's a lot of vital energy in keeping them in repair.
one thing with the 7 day practice is playing carefully graduated material, doing plenty of blowing, and stopping while the chops are reasonably fresh.
it's pretty cool to be playing every day and very pleasurable.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:42 pm    Post subject: Re: the embouchure muscles Reply with quote

chuck in ny wrote:
stopping while the chops are reasonably fresh.


There is a big difference between exercising a muscle group to reasonably fresh and fatigued. Try doing two 3 hour rehearsals on the Bach B minor mass, or something similar. You feel it the next day.

cheers

Andy
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:52 pm    Post subject: the embouchure muscles Reply with quote

Three criterion in weight training for specific and noticeable gain. Training needs to be specific, measurable and attainable. In weight training you also apply the overload principle for gain. Trumpet playing particularly the first time I went to college, there was practice for my individual instruction 1-2 hours a day, marching band 2-2 1/2 hours perday, and then with the start up of symphonic band evening practices of 2 more hours. Somewhere in there, between and amongst the fatigue one learns how to develop and enhance their endurance and staying power. You sound like you have a pretty sound approach and are reaping the rewards!
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JVL
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and some day, the chops go for holidays...
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Chuck, I’ve been doing HIT training for years..so I’m only lifting 2x a week, but fully maxing out the whole body each time I train. Besides traditional stuff, I do strongman stuff like lifting stones, flipping truck tires, and pulling ship’s anchor chains during these workouts. I agree with what you are saying here about the embouchure muscles. Have you rented Lynn Nicholson’s ‘Got High Notes’ video? Or bought Pops’s ‘Tensionless Playing’ book with his thermal imaging studies and videos? It makes it quite clear that players who have no problem with endurance and playing into the extreme upper register are only using a few muscles right around the lips. Players with range/endurance issues, have a lot more muscle engagement throughout the face. It could be that they have to keep their muscles stronger because, along with the muscles necessary for playing the trumpet, they are using muscles that are not necessary for trumpet playing and which are actually causing tension and inhibiting the physical ease of playing.

I notice players who have good success with Warburton’s PETE, aren’t maxing out their chops with it, but doing light work with it with repetitions. I also find the way Pops’s specifically prescribes the pencil exercise, only works out the muscles necessary for playing.

Now Lynn will tell you he has weaker lips than any trumpet player. He cites the fact that Maynard would take weeks off between tours and be right back into playing. But, as I’m sure you know from lifting, even if one has to take a few weeks off from lifting, muscle memory comes back pretty quickly. If you are maintaining your calories and everything else is the same during the time off, it shouldn’t take long at all to get back to your previous poundages.

I believe there does have to be a certain amount of muscular development in the right embouchure muscles. We’ve talked about the Dave Belknap Schlossberg routine before. Even though this routine really does workout the whole playing mechanism, it certainly doesn’t feel like your are really working the ‘chop muscles’ when you are playing this routine. Like with rim buzzing, when I do the Belknap routine, I feel like I am working on smooth airflow and relaxation in the face. A number of players agree that this routine is deceptive with the real workout you are getting.

Every player is different, but I think, for the majority of us, especially those of us who started playing as children, are teaching our playing mechanisms to play more relaxed and to not use embouchure muscles that we had used previously when we started playing. That these muscles are actually creating tension and reducing our range, endurance, and resonance/breadth of sound.

I’m sure that you can get to the point where the first thing that causes your range and endurance to drop will be getting tired in your core muscles. Situations like when you may have missed a lot of sleep over the course of days and/or your diet, or someother such thing that effects the physical body, is causing it to be tired. So, imo, it can be easily seen how playing in this manner, using only the embouchure muscles that are necessary for playing and relying on the core muscles to control much more of the instrument, a lot more day-to-day consistency of playing is possible. All the best, Lex
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ljazztrm wrote:
Hey Chuck, I’ve been doing HIT training for years..so I’m only lifting 2x a week, but fully maxing out the whole body each time I train. Besides traditional stuff, I do strongman stuff like lifting stones, flipping truck tires, and pulling ship’s anchor chains during these workouts. I agree with what you are saying here about the embouchure muscles. Have you rented Lynn Nicholson’s ‘Got High Notes’ video? Or bought Pops’s ‘Tensionless Playing’ book with his thermal imaging studies and videos? It makes it quite clear that players who have no problem with endurance and playing into the extreme upper register are only using a few muscles right around the lips. Players with range/endurance issues, have a lot more muscle engagement throughout the face. It could be that they have to keep their muscles stronger because, along with the muscles necessary for playing the trumpet, they are using muscles that are not necessary for trumpet playing and which are actually causing tension and inhibiting the physical ease of playing.

I notice players who have good success with Warburton’s PETE, aren’t maxing out their chops with it, but doing light work with it with repetitions. I also find the way Pops’s specifically prescribes the pencil exercise, only works out the muscles necessary for playing.

Now Lynn will tell you he has weaker lips than any trumpet player. He cites the fact that Maynard would take weeks off between tours and be right back into playing. But, as I’m sure you know from lifting, even if one has to take a few weeks off from lifting, muscle memory comes back pretty quickly. If you are maintaining your calories and everything else is the same during the time off, it shouldn’t take long at all to get back to your previous poundages.

I believe there does have to be a certain amount of muscular development in the right embouchure muscles. We’ve talked about the Dave Belknap Schlossberg routine before. Even though this routine really does workout the whole playing mechanism, it certainly doesn’t feel like your are really working the ‘chop muscles’ when you are playing this routine. Like with rim buzzing, when I do the Belknap routine, I feel like I am working on smooth airflow and relaxation in the face. A number of players agree that this routine is deceptive with the real workout you are getting.

Every player is different, but I think, for the majority of us, especially those of us who started playing as children, are teaching our playing mechanisms to play more relaxed and to not use embouchure muscles that we had used previously when we started playing. That these muscles are actually creating tension and reducing our range, endurance, and resonance/breadth of sound.

I’m sure that you can get to the point where the first thing that causes your range and endurance to drop will be getting tired in your core muscles. Situations like when you may have missed a lot of sleep over the course of days and/or your diet, or someother such thing that effects the physical body, is causing it to be tired. So, imo, it can be easily seen how playing in this manner, using only the embouchure muscles that are necessary for playing and relying on the core muscles to control much more of the instrument, a lot more day-to-day consistency of playing is possible. All the best, Lex


lex

impressive routine. i've added kettle bells recently with the similar thought of having strength in motion, you know, a dynamic and balance aspect.
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ljazztrm
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Joined: 03 Dec 2001
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah chuck, I love the kettle bells too...for delts and traps mainly. But there is a cat, I think his name is Pavel Tsatsouline (sp?) who wrote a whole book about getting a full body workout with just kettle bells..If you have enough different weight kettle bells, I'm sure it's possible! Best, Lex
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lex

you can do a lot with them. i have a small house crammed with my other hobby stuff so a 35# and 70# bell will have to suffice.
bells are like smorgasbord. you find a few exercises that address specific areas and that's what they are good for. i my case i target specific lacks. the 70# bell is killer to develop grip strength for example. i am nearly 70 years old so it has taken me this time to get any sense at all for what to do. it's a gift. same with trumpet as well and fortunately filtering into happyville with the difficult instrument. it is supposed to be this way you know. there are a lot of avenues in trumpet instruction and practice most of them dead ends. like with weights you first need to get to a spiritual spot of truth and understanding.
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ljazztrm
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Joined: 03 Dec 2001
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Location: Queens and upstate, NY

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're dead on chuck. Couldn't agree more! Enjoy your kettle-belling!
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey! Found it! 'Strength Secret of the Soviet Supermen' - haha!!
https://www.amazon.com/Enter-Kettlebell-Strength-Secret-Supermen-ebook/dp/B004XIZK5K
"I will break you." - Ivan Drago...hahaha!!
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
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Betelgeuse215
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do lip push ups...for what it's worth. Just my 2 cents
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ljazztrm wrote:
Hey! Found it! 'Strength Secret of the Soviet Supermen' - haha!!
https://www.amazon.com/Enter-Kettlebell-Strength-Secret-Supermen-ebook/dp/B004XIZK5K
"I will break you." - Ivan Drago...hahaha!!


thanks for the link. brings to mind emilianenko. it's a sad affair fighting with a russian. pick fights elsewhere. very unassuming looking dudes will wipe the floor with you.
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