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Nice vs horrid



 
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Pablopiccasso
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Joined: 25 Jan 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:25 am    Post subject: Nice vs horrid Reply with quote

What makes one horn nice to play/in tune/etc versus a horrid blow with intonation problems etc.

What can realistically be done to improve poor performing horns? Good brands, not Indian/Chinese junk types.

What are the main offending "faults" that may be correctable within reason

Odd question I know, but assuming the horn hasn't been abused too much, is there much that can be done other than binning it or, being an ass and selling on to some unsuspecting schmuck
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having played trumpets that you can change the bell on, it must be physical issue leading to the differences (a ingot hammered v. sheet brass bell responds very differently), BUT finding the issue and correcting it is the challenge. It can be measurable, such as valve alignment or a part size, but may not be obvious.

Then there's the tempering state of the various parts, so an annealed or tempered section will have an effect.

If the instrument is a dog, sell it, because someone else may just like it!
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've read that between student instruments and pro, the principal source of variation is the valves - student horns have valves built to much larger tolerances.

Aside from quality control in general, I think that might be the big thing.

I could be totally wrong on this!
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://blog.osmun.com/why-are-some-trumpets-better-than-others/
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turkle wrote:
I've read that between student instruments and pro, the principal source of variation is the valves - student horns have valves built to much larger tolerances.

Aside from quality control in general, I think that might be the big thing.

I could be totally wrong on this!


I have seen and experienced other things that make student models different.

In the Holton Collegiate I have back in the late 1960s, it had a mouth pipe taper that was like a swale. It stayed small for about 1/3 to 1/2 of its length and then flared up to the diameter of the bore in a parabolic curve. That made it easy to play at low volume, but insert a harmon mute and intonation went wonky.

I've played a few Yamaha student models and one knock-off. They all had very limited ability to project their sound.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My impression is that there are uncountable ways to make a trumpet play badly. Because of that, there's no short list that is likely to correct what's wrong. I suspect that only a top pro shop can tell you if a particular flaw can reasonably be fixed. And unless it's already a reputable model horn there's probably little chance of turning a clunker into a gem.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:53 am    Post subject: Re: Nice vs horrid Reply with quote

Pablopiccasso wrote:


What can realistically be done to improve poor performing horns?


This is how Jason Harrelson got his start. He tinkered with horns as early as Junior HS, always having 2 horns for unique purposes. At some point people started asking him to modify their horns. For a very long time he was afraid to work on a horn that was already great, but finally somebody convinced him to. Jason couldn't believe how good the results were! I own that horn. This is what convinced Jason to start building his own horns. (I own one of those too, which is my daily player)

A completely different approach is the BIAS system which seeks to analyze how a horn resonates, the idea being to be able to improve it. Wayne Tannabe had one and made a few horns using it before Yamaha bought him out and employed him. Then their artist series went up a BIG notch!

A completely different approach is taken by Flip Oakes' "enhancement," and Osmun's "blueprinting." These aim to bring the horn into manufacturer's original specs, rather than modifying anything.

So realize if you start off on your own, (and Dave Monette started by working with people who had) you're following in the footsteps of many.
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JasonHarrelson
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The true answer is, "it depends on the horn you're analyzing". I can give you a long list of important factors, but the reality is that almost everything on that list can be a potential issue. And it's possible that several factors are to blame. Here are a few things to consider...

mouthpiece dimensions
mouthpiece fit
mouthpiece gap
receiver design and fit to leadpipe
leadpipe taper
leadpipe material properties
venturi ID + leadpipe end ID ratio to length (taper)
fit of all unions, joints and couplers
tuning slide ID related to leadpipe taper
tuning slide ID related to bore size
variations in bore size
piston design, fit and alignment in up and down positions
bell taper
leadpipe taper compared to bell taper
material wall thickness in the leadpipe, outside of crooks and bell
resonance of bell material/temper
debris present inside the instrument (solder, unnecessary tubes, dirt, objects)

Let me know if you have specific questions.
Jason
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you dstdenis for posting our link. We offer free, while you wait diagnostics at the receiving end of repairs to better inform our customers where improvements might be realized. Once identified we'll advise the best avenue to take, providing an estimate to bring your instrument up to it's fullest potential. In many instances this can be achieved without replacement of major components. This is particularly valuable when we work on a professional level instrument you've selected for it's characteristic sound, particularly Bach C trumpets. With proper planning we can turn around your instrument within a day or two with a scheduled appointment. Jobs requiring valve rebuilds are performed in the order they're received and typically take several weeks. All work, with exception of stripping and re-plating silver, gold and chrome, is done in house. With a combined 120+ years of experience among three craftsmen, you know your in good hands. We look forward to the opportunity to serve your musical needs.
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www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
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