But why so many votes for laquer rather than silver? I would’ve assumed they play the same.
This questions is not easy to answer. At least I have not heard yet of two trumpets playing 100% exactly the same. A good player will always find subtle differences between two "identical" horns. If there would be two playing absolutely identical one could be silver plated, the other one lacquered and an A/B comparison could be made by different players and in different styles.
I have asked several trumpet manufacturers, techs and players testing bunches of horns (for manufacturers or stores). They all said their experience over many horns they had in their hands is that lacquer adds a subtle warmth and silver brightness to the sound.
Hub van Laar told me in addition that gold does not change the sound. For a quality gold plating the trumpet is first silver plated and then gold plated. The gold plating however is so thin, also due to the price of gold, that there is no effect on the sound. On the other hand, a trumpet player sees the gold plated instrument in his/her hands, perceives it as a warm sounding instrument and then makes it sound warmer.
Asking Bobby Shew whether he recommends silver plating or lacquer for his Yamaha signature model he clearly directs towards the lacquered version. Rumor says that Bobby wanted Yamaha to offer the trumpet in lacquer only, but Yamaha added the silver version to their line of instruments due to the "high school effect" (as discussed above). I believe the Yamaha Shew is an instrument designed in a way that it plays better in lacquer. Maybe it's the same for the Anniversary? That being said, I play a silver Anniversary and it is a great horn.
I was told also that the difference between silver and lacquer has been getting smaller as today's lacquers are harder. The difference is subtle, but it's there. The psychological effect adds to that.
jadickson wrote:
Ed Kennedy wrote:
How does the Artisan Bb stack up with the 190-37 and 43?
Same excellent build quality. Different sound & blow. (...)
I owned an Artisan and I second that it is a great trumpet too. To my perception the Anniversary is a bit more agile. My friends playing classical music or sitting in orchestras gravitated more to the Artisan as it provides some extra safety for delicate passages, but also liked the livelyness of the Anniversary. YMMV
I am just coming back from summer vacation in Maine where I used some days off trying to switch from my reliable workhorse Bach 180 43/43 to a Bach New York 7. I think I will go back to the 180 43/43. Anyway, the New York 7 is another great trumpet and I like it a lot. Quite different blow than the Anniversary or the Artisan, but for sure worth trying.
Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 1294 Location: Raleigh, NC
Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:15 am Post subject:
The irony is that back in the 1960's, almost all Stradivarius trumpets were lacquer not silver. And these Anniversary models are designed around the 1960's Bach. And yet people want silver.
IIRC On the 180's, the silver plated ones have yellowbrass slide outers while the lacquered ones use nickelsilver?
If so, that'll make a bigger difference than the finish.
Bidding on one on eBay for $2,500...a good deal, as they’re usually $3100 and it’s barely been played too
The 19037 & 19047 Anniversary models are available new from Bach for $2,646 if you don't need the mouthpiece or case.
Also, if you check out Quinn the Eskimo's storefront on Reverb.com you'll see he is currently selling "barely used" 19037 and 19043 horns with the case and mouthpiece on sale for $2,209 (regularly $2,500; as of Aug 12th).
Bidding on one on eBay for $2,500...a good deal, as they’re usually $3100 and it’s barely been played too
The 19037 & 19047 Anniversary models are available new from Bach for $2,646 if you don't need the mouthpiece or case.
Also, if you check out Quinn the Eskimo's storefront on Reverb.com you'll see he is currently selling "barely used" 19037 and 19043 horns with the case and mouthpiece on sale for $2,209 (regularly $2,500; as of Aug 12th).
Good luck!
Since when does Bach sell to retail customers directly? "Barely used" is still used.
Does anyone know the wholesale cost of a Bach Stradivarius? Is the base price for dealers 40% off or 50%?
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8331 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:19 pm Post subject:
jadickson wrote:
The irony is that back in the 1960's, almost all Stradivarius trumpets were lacquer not silver. And these Anniversary models are designed around the 1960's Bach. And yet people want silver.
Personally, I like finishes or plating that doesn't look worn after 5-20 years.
Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 1294 Location: Raleigh, NC
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:13 am Post subject:
In an effort to contribute to this thread, and at the risk of keyboard warriors criticizing my average talent level (please don't, I already know), I made a recording of the 190-37 and 180S-37 back to back.
I am using a stock Bach 3C (bought in new 2018) since that is a common frame of reference for everyone. The two horns have very close serial numbers: the 190 is 743000 and the 180 is 734000. I put brass valve guides in both, and then put plastic guides in both just to see how that would affect things. The 190 is lacquer and the 180 is silver, so it is not truly "apples to apples", but this is what I have.
I hope this is helpful. I am recording with a pretty good microphone, an Audio-Technica AT2020USBi, into an iPad.
It's funny, on the video, I don't hear too much of a difference between the horns. I hear a little more of a difference when I play them. Not much, but I could definitely tell which is which if I were blindfolded. They are both great. I don't think either is "better" or "more" of anything. It's more like, they are two different shades of the same color.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:15 am Post subject:
Pardon my confusion, and I don't mean this disingenuously I'm just getting confused, but what does this have to do with an Anniversary model? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
jadicksom, thanks for the videos! Very clean playing. It actually matched my thoughts of the 19037...having a little more crispness and brilliance in the sound. I dig it!
I have an old 72 which has been a great horn. I recently picked up a lacquered anniversary model. It plays wonderfully and sounds very good. I've played many regular 37's and every horn I play is slightly different. In the end, the best thing to do is try one that you can buy if you like it. Make sure someone else is able to listen to you. Often the front and the back of the horn sounds very different:) I like the sound of my 72 from the back, but my wife likes the sound of the 37 form the front....
Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 1294 Location: Raleigh, NC
Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:19 am Post subject:
I took the same two trumpets to my church sanctuary to see how their sounds would compare in that acoustic space. I think you can hear the difference between the 190 and the 180 more in this video, than the ones recorded in my living room.
Make sure you change the quality to at least 720p to increase the audio quality also.
So the first trumpet is a lacquer 190-37, serial number 743000.
The second trumpet is a silver 180-37, serial number 734000.
Curry 3C mouthpiece in the Bach-ish blank used on his BC pieces.
So I got the 190. I previously used a 180 that was made in 1994 and is in solid condition. The 190 seems to have less roundness and core to the sound than I remember. I’m pretty disappointed about that. However, it plays much cleaner and easier than the 180 I own. I’m not sure if this is because of the age difference or the model difference. Any advice on what I should do? I have 25 days left to return the 190.
Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 1294 Location: Raleigh, NC
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:19 pm Post subject:
CJceltics33 wrote:
So I got the 190. I previously used a 180 that was made in 1994 and is in solid condition. The 190 seems to have less roundness and core to the sound than I remember. I’m pretty disappointed about that. However, it plays much cleaner and easier than the 180 I own. I’m not sure if this is because of the age difference or the model difference. Any advice on what I should do? I have 25 days left to return the 190.
I know what you mean. It is very responsive and seems to emphasize the higher overtones a little more than the 180. You can hear it on the video I posted right above your post.
Getting the lacquer version would help a little, as opposed to the silver. Moving the main tuning slide can affect things a little. But honestly, I think that's just the way it is designed. Or rather, it is a result of the design changes.
Check the gap. With a Bach mouthpiece, the gap should be right at 1/8".
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:10 pm Post subject:
CJceltics33 wrote:
So I got the 190. I previously used a 180 that was made in 1994 and is in solid condition. The 190 seems to have less roundness and core to the sound than I remember. I’m pretty disappointed about that. However, it plays much cleaner and easier than the 180 I own. I’m not sure if this is because of the age difference or the model difference. Any advice on what I should do? I have 25 days left to return the 190.
Is it the same horn you remember the roundness and core? If not, send it back and try another. Bachs are handmade and vary horn to horn.
Joined: 17 Oct 2018 Posts: 4 Location: Chantilly, VA
Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:40 am Post subject: High schoolers and silver vs. lacquered horns
Speed wrote:
I've also heard the conventional wisdom that the kids like a shiny silver trumpet; however, a high school band director buddy recently told me that virtually all of his kids' initial trumpets are brass. He speculates that it's because the lacquer ones are typically a bit less expensive than the silver plated ones.
As the parent of a 9th grade trumpet player, I can validate this. His current trumpet is an (at least) third-hand Olds that cost me $70 three years ago when he started playing in 6th grade. The entry-level horns are all lacquered, no way is any parent in their right mind going to buy a silverplated horn (I've not seen one for less than $800, YMMV) for an 11yo child who might not continue playing. I'm currently in the midst of trying to win one of several eBay auctions for one of several used silver Bach 37s now that he's more serious about playing. He's already said that there are only a few silver trumpets in the marching band, and he plans to continue using his Olds for everything except practice at home, competitions, and performances because he doesn't want his new horn to get dented, damaged, or stolen. _________________ Band Dad to an aspiring trumpet player, upgrading his instrument from a cheap student Olds to a Bach Stradivarius 37 (silver) just bought on eBay and arriving any day
Joined: 28 Aug 2005 Posts: 979 Location: Toms River, New Jersey
Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:17 am Post subject:
I couldn't agree more. I have a few Strads that are all great horns,but these new 190 series remind me of a real good Mt. Vernon or early Elkhart.
Getting back to basics is really going to bring more players back to Bach. Ease of play is a real bonus as well as the sound.
Those that love Yamaha's for their renowned ease of play, may very well be tempted to go to Bach after playing these fine horns. THE Sound and ease of play will be a tough thing to pass up. _________________ Tom
'08 Bach factory custom "one off" 43*G SN#2008
'65 Bach 181 37 SN#30836
'67 Bach 180 37 SN#39773
'70 Bach 181 37 SN#58831
'72 Bach 180S 43 SN#70503
'05 Bach VBS 196 Picc SN#560142
'07 Bach Chicago C SN#656602
All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous1, 2, 3Next
Page 2 of 3
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum