• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

New Bach Anniversary


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Chris#
New Member


Joined: 01 Aug 2018
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CJceltics33 wrote:
But why so many votes for laquer rather than silver? I would’ve assumed they play the same.

This questions is not easy to answer. At least I have not heard yet of two trumpets playing 100% exactly the same. A good player will always find subtle differences between two "identical" horns. If there would be two playing absolutely identical one could be silver plated, the other one lacquered and an A/B comparison could be made by different players and in different styles.

I have asked several trumpet manufacturers, techs and players testing bunches of horns (for manufacturers or stores). They all said their experience over many horns they had in their hands is that lacquer adds a subtle warmth and silver brightness to the sound.

Hub van Laar told me in addition that gold does not change the sound. For a quality gold plating the trumpet is first silver plated and then gold plated. The gold plating however is so thin, also due to the price of gold, that there is no effect on the sound. On the other hand, a trumpet player sees the gold plated instrument in his/her hands, perceives it as a warm sounding instrument and then makes it sound warmer.

Asking Bobby Shew whether he recommends silver plating or lacquer for his Yamaha signature model he clearly directs towards the lacquered version. Rumor says that Bobby wanted Yamaha to offer the trumpet in lacquer only, but Yamaha added the silver version to their line of instruments due to the "high school effect" (as discussed above). I believe the Yamaha Shew is an instrument designed in a way that it plays better in lacquer. Maybe it's the same for the Anniversary? That being said, I play a silver Anniversary and it is a great horn.

I was told also that the difference between silver and lacquer has been getting smaller as today's lacquers are harder. The difference is subtle, but it's there. The psychological effect adds to that.

jadickson wrote:
Ed Kennedy wrote:
How does the Artisan Bb stack up with the 190-37 and 43?

Same excellent build quality. Different sound & blow. (...)

I owned an Artisan and I second that it is a great trumpet too. To my perception the Anniversary is a bit more agile. My friends playing classical music or sitting in orchestras gravitated more to the Artisan as it provides some extra safety for delicate passages, but also liked the livelyness of the Anniversary. YMMV

I am just coming back from summer vacation in Maine where I used some days off trying to switch from my reliable workhorse Bach 180 43/43 to a Bach New York 7. I think I will go back to the 180 43/43. Anyway, the New York 7 is another great trumpet and I like it a lot. Quite different blow than the Anniversary or the Artisan, but for sure worth trying.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jadickson
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1294
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The irony is that back in the 1960's, almost all Stradivarius trumpets were lacquer not silver. And these Anniversary models are designed around the 1960's Bach. And yet people want silver.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
CJceltics33
Veteran Member


Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 475

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the feedback. I’ll make sure to try a laquer before I go ahead and get the silver.

The guy at the store said these horns were “limited edition.” Is that true?

PS. I didn’t like the Xenos.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TKSop
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1720
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IIRC On the 180's, the silver plated ones have yellowbrass slide outers while the lacquered ones use nickelsilver?
If so, that'll make a bigger difference than the finish.

Is the same true of the 190's?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CJceltics33
Veteran Member


Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 475

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bidding on one on eBay for $2,500...a good deal, as they’re usually $3100 and it’s barely been played too
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dayton
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Mar 2013
Posts: 1991
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Bidding on one on eBay for $2,500...a good deal, as they’re usually $3100 and it’s barely been played too


The 19037 & 19047 Anniversary models are available new from Bach for $2,646 if you don't need the mouthpiece or case.

Also, if you check out Quinn the Eskimo's storefront on Reverb.com you'll see he is currently selling "barely used" 19037 and 19043 horns with the case and mouthpiece on sale for $2,209 (regularly $2,500; as of Aug 12th).

Good luck!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Heim
Veteran Member


Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 181

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dayton wrote:
Quote:
Bidding on one on eBay for $2,500...a good deal, as they’re usually $3100 and it’s barely been played too


The 19037 & 19047 Anniversary models are available new from Bach for $2,646 if you don't need the mouthpiece or case.

Also, if you check out Quinn the Eskimo's storefront on Reverb.com you'll see he is currently selling "barely used" 19037 and 19043 horns with the case and mouthpiece on sale for $2,209 (regularly $2,500; as of Aug 12th).

Good luck!


Since when does Bach sell to retail customers directly? "Barely used" is still used.

Does anyone know the wholesale cost of a Bach Stradivarius? Is the base price for dealers 40% off or 50%?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Crazy Finn
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 27 Dec 2001
Posts: 8331
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jadickson wrote:
The irony is that back in the 1960's, almost all Stradivarius trumpets were lacquer not silver. And these Anniversary models are designed around the 1960's Bach. And yet people want silver.

Personally, I like finishes or plating that doesn't look worn after 5-20 years.

That isn't lacquer.
_________________
LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dayton
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Mar 2013
Posts: 1991
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Since when does Bach sell to retail customers directly?


It isn't purely direct, but here is how the process works.

Go to the official Conn Selmer Build a Bach website: http://www.build-a-bach.com/Product?productName=Trumpet

On the website you select the configuration you want, and then select the local Conn Selmer dealer that the order will go through.

Conn Selmer then ships the horn to that local music store for you to pick up (or for them to then ship to you).

Good luck!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jadickson
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1294
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In an effort to contribute to this thread, and at the risk of keyboard warriors criticizing my average talent level (please don't, I already know), I made a recording of the 190-37 and 180S-37 back to back.

I am using a stock Bach 3C (bought in new 2018) since that is a common frame of reference for everyone. The two horns have very close serial numbers: the 190 is 743000 and the 180 is 734000. I put brass valve guides in both, and then put plastic guides in both just to see how that would affect things. The 190 is lacquer and the 180 is silver, so it is not truly "apples to apples", but this is what I have.

I hope this is helpful. I am recording with a pretty good microphone, an Audio-Technica AT2020USBi, into an iPad.

It's funny, on the video, I don't hear too much of a difference between the horns. I hear a little more of a difference when I play them. Not much, but I could definitely tell which is which if I were blindfolded. They are both great. I don't think either is "better" or "more" of anything. It's more like, they are two different shades of the same color.


BRASS VALVE GUIDES

Link


.

PLASTIC VALVE GUIDES

Link


.
_________________
Justin Dickson
Middle school band director. Still learning.
www.BandmateTuner.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 8965
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pardon my confusion, and I don't mean this disingenuously I'm just getting confused, but what does this have to do with an Anniversary model?
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jadickson
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1294
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Pardon my confusion, and I don't mean this disingenuously I'm just getting confused, but what does this have to do with an Anniversary model?


The 190-37 was marketed as "the Anniversary" model, commemorating 50 years of Bach being in Elkhart. It is modeled after the 1960's Strads. See here: https://www.bachbrass.com/instruments/trumpets/professional/19037
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
CJceltics33
Veteran Member


Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 475

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jadicksom, thanks for the videos! Very clean playing. It actually matched my thoughts of the 19037...having a little more crispness and brilliance in the sound. I dig it!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CSR
Regular Member


Joined: 19 May 2018
Posts: 39
Location: Tennessee

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an old 72 which has been a great horn. I recently picked up a lacquered anniversary model. It plays wonderfully and sounds very good. I've played many regular 37's and every horn I play is slightly different. In the end, the best thing to do is try one that you can buy if you like it. Make sure someone else is able to listen to you. Often the front and the back of the horn sounds very different:) I like the sound of my 72 from the back, but my wife likes the sound of the 37 form the front....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
jadickson
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1294
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took the same two trumpets to my church sanctuary to see how their sounds would compare in that acoustic space. I think you can hear the difference between the 190 and the 180 more in this video, than the ones recorded in my living room.

Make sure you change the quality to at least 720p to increase the audio quality also.


Link


So the first trumpet is a lacquer 190-37, serial number 743000.
The second trumpet is a silver 180-37, serial number 734000.
Curry 3C mouthpiece in the Bach-ish blank used on his BC pieces.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
CJceltics33
Veteran Member


Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 475

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I got the 190. I previously used a 180 that was made in 1994 and is in solid condition. The 190 seems to have less roundness and core to the sound than I remember. I’m pretty disappointed about that. However, it plays much cleaner and easier than the 180 I own. I’m not sure if this is because of the age difference or the model difference. Any advice on what I should do? I have 25 days left to return the 190.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jadickson
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1294
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CJceltics33 wrote:
So I got the 190. I previously used a 180 that was made in 1994 and is in solid condition. The 190 seems to have less roundness and core to the sound than I remember. I’m pretty disappointed about that. However, it plays much cleaner and easier than the 180 I own. I’m not sure if this is because of the age difference or the model difference. Any advice on what I should do? I have 25 days left to return the 190.


I know what you mean. It is very responsive and seems to emphasize the higher overtones a little more than the 180. You can hear it on the video I posted right above your post.

Getting the lacquer version would help a little, as opposed to the silver. Moving the main tuning slide can affect things a little. But honestly, I think that's just the way it is designed. Or rather, it is a result of the design changes.

Check the gap. With a Bach mouthpiece, the gap should be right at 1/8".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12647
Location: Gardena, Ca

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CJceltics33 wrote:
So I got the 190. I previously used a 180 that was made in 1994 and is in solid condition. The 190 seems to have less roundness and core to the sound than I remember. I’m pretty disappointed about that. However, it plays much cleaner and easier than the 180 I own. I’m not sure if this is because of the age difference or the model difference. Any advice on what I should do? I have 25 days left to return the 190.

Is it the same horn you remember the roundness and core? If not, send it back and try another. Bachs are handmade and vary horn to horn.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
stephenwb
New Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2018
Posts: 4
Location: Chantilly, VA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:40 am    Post subject: High schoolers and silver vs. lacquered horns Reply with quote

Speed wrote:
I've also heard the conventional wisdom that the kids like a shiny silver trumpet; however, a high school band director buddy recently told me that virtually all of his kids' initial trumpets are brass. He speculates that it's because the lacquer ones are typically a bit less expensive than the silver plated ones.

As the parent of a 9th grade trumpet player, I can validate this. His current trumpet is an (at least) third-hand Olds that cost me $70 three years ago when he started playing in 6th grade. The entry-level horns are all lacquered, no way is any parent in their right mind going to buy a silverplated horn (I've not seen one for less than $800, YMMV) for an 11yo child who might not continue playing. I'm currently in the midst of trying to win one of several eBay auctions for one of several used silver Bach 37s now that he's more serious about playing. He's already said that there are only a few silver trumpets in the marching band, and he plans to continue using his Olds for everything except practice at home, competitions, and performances because he doesn't want his new horn to get dented, damaged, or stolen.
_________________
Band Dad to an aspiring trumpet player, upgrading his instrument from a cheap student Olds to a Bach Stradivarius 37 (silver) just bought on eBay and arriving any day
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
65strad
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Posts: 979
Location: Toms River, New Jersey

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I couldn't agree more. I have a few Strads that are all great horns,but these new 190 series remind me of a real good Mt. Vernon or early Elkhart.

Getting back to basics is really going to bring more players back to Bach. Ease of play is a real bonus as well as the sound.

Those that love Yamaha's for their renowned ease of play, may very well be tempted to go to Bach after playing these fine horns. THE Sound and ease of play will be a tough thing to pass up.
_________________
Tom
'08 Bach factory custom "one off" 43*G SN#2008
'65 Bach 181 37 SN#30836
'67 Bach 180 37 SN#39773
'70 Bach 181 37 SN#58831
'72 Bach 180S 43 SN#70503
'05 Bach VBS 196 Picc SN#560142
'07 Bach Chicago C SN#656602
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group