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New Yamaha Xeno model?


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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 4424
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

I asked Yamaha Music London about the difference between the cases for the Xeno II and Xeno IV, and received the following response:

The difference is that the 02 model had a strap that pulls through the handle on the top and then attached to the case itself.
There was a problem with the design of this and the new case doesn’t now have that pull strap just the handle.

i.e. Although this is labelled as being a case for a Xeno IV, I believe that this is a Xeno II case, as the photo is from Yamaha Music London, and they said that they haven't yet seen a Xeno IV case in the flesh. It also looks identical to my Xeno II case:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=yamaha+xeno+case&safe=active&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=8nAW8VbV7nZdIM%253A%252CuLO3i3lxTxY4XM%252C_&usg=__sulT8Fn2kOKwU6CXnYUMapduvEE%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi5yb2cjprbAhWMAcAKHU1kAYYQ9QEIMTAD#imgrc=DdPpN6dkk1bR1M:

Although an Artist rather than Xeno case, I believe that the Xeno IV case will be of this design:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=yamaha+xeno+case&safe=active&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=8nAW8VbV7nZdIM%253A%252CuLO3i3lxTxY4XM%252C_&usg=__sulT8Fn2kOKwU6CXnYUMapduvEE%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi5yb2cjprbAhWMAcAKHU1kAYYQ9QEIMTAD#imgrc=8nAW8VbV7nZdIM:

If so, I feel that the squarer pocket is better, as the rounded one of my Xeno II case, will not easily hold sheet music, because the case is only deep enough in the middle section.

Although going through the handle, I like the extra strap of the Xeno II case, as I feel that it is an additional safety feature against being distracted whilst putting your trumpet away, and forgetting to zip the case up.

I personally don't use my Xeno II case as my main case (I use it for my C trumpet/spare Bb).

My main case is this one:

https://www.johnpacker.co.uk/prod/jp851-pro-lightweight-double-trumpet-case

As you can see, it has two handles either side of the main zip that join in the middle, and also act as a safety feature against picking up the case with the zip done up.

I use this case because although almost the same size as the Xeno II one, when laying down in the position in which you put in your trumpet(s), it is taller, but narrower from front to back. Being taller results in you being able to put a cornet in one of the slots (since the case is also modular), but being narrower from front to back, makes the pocket on the top too narrow to hold sheet music.

Since I was particularly looking for a case to hold a Bb trumpet and cornet, this case meets my main requirement.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 4424
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Having not tried all the configurations, I wondering how the gold brass bell model in silver-plate compares in sound to the yellow brass bell model in lacquer.

I know the difference between yellow and gold brass bells, and how a gold brass bell warms the sound, but I am wondering since silver-plate is said to brighten the sound, what would be the combined effect of warming the sound via a gold brass bell whilst also brightening the sound with silver-plate, and how would the net effect vary in sound to a yellow brass bell in lacquer.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 4424
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
kandor wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
Hi kandor

I've had a look at the Yamaha parts catalogue, and noticed something which I've found before from serial number lists, that although my trumpet is definitely a Xeno II and has all the features of the Xeno II, its serial number is actually over 1000 below the starting serial number for the Xeno II.

I bought my trumpet as an ex-demo in October 2015, and am not sure whether it being an ex-demo has anything to do with the serial number anomaly.

All the best

Lou


Ah, this sounds very strange to me.
My Xeno-II is a YTR-8335S(2) with serial #53651X, bought in July 2015.
Maybe you could call Yamaha's Customer Service to investigate.


Hi kandor

I don't suppose it matters, as it definitely is a Xeno II and has all the features of the Xeno II, but my serial number starts with 525. It is not my eyes, as I have confirmed what I am seeing with the serial number on my invoice. I'm guessing that my trumpet is from 2013.

I have however completed the contact form on the Yamaha website, asking them about the serial number of my trumpet.

All the best

Lou


Hi

I've finally heard from Yamaha regarding the serial number of my trumpet.

Yamaha UK Support say the following:

Dear Ms Finch,

Thank you for your enquiry regarding your Yamaha trumpet.

With regards to the second part of your enquiry, our specialists in Japan have struggled to find out any specific information on your trumpet. The serial number indicates that it was manufactured around May 2013. There is no information on why the number is lower than the original numbering system would indicate. Our colleagues have suggested that it could be from an early batch or prototype model.

I am sorry that we have been unable to be more definite.

I hope that this has been helpful.

Kind regards,

Alison Osborn


My trumpet is definitely a Xeno II, and has all of the features of a Xeno II, so I'm not worried. I bought it knowing it was a ex-demo, so maybe it is from an early batch. I very much doubt that it is a prototype, as it has all the Xeno II features.

Anyway it is what it is, and is a very good player, so it doesn't matter.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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kandor
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Joined: 11 Jan 2005
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Location: Bremen, Germany

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for sharing the answer from Yamaha Support.
Given that your Xeno was sold as "demo", I suspect that it was one of the very first "II" coming out of the factory, and promptly sent from Japan to showrooms worldwide to demonstrate the new model.
If this is the case, I wouldn't be surprised if it is a very good player: meant to be closely examined by enthusiasts and occasionally tried for comparisons against the old model and maybe... a Bach, wouldn't you choose to send a PERFECTLY handcrafted instrument ?
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:30 pm    Post subject: New Yamaha Xeno model Reply with quote

I have wondered, since picking up the trumpet again, and looking at many different brands why there is such a difference between the 8335 and 9335 series Yamahas. How do you make a wonderful, even "great" trumpet go for $2000 more is kind of beyond me. To those who can sense the differences between the two horns more power to them. And, I would never tell anyone not to buy or use something. It is their money and decision. The Xeno II is a wonderful horn. Where I buy some music supplies they have a co-owner and a repair guy that both play trumpet. They sell Yamaha, Schilke, and Bach horns. Both play Yamaha and I think that counts for something. That and the fact that Hooten from the LA Philharmonic, Martin of NY Philharmonic, Hagstrom from the CSO, and Bilger from the Philadelphia Orchestra all play Yamaha it says that horns are top quality and they work for their purpose. The whole thing with companies having different code names and numbers denoting marketing strategies, that happens in other industries all the time.
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"There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush
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LSOfanboy
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Joined: 08 Jul 2018
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:46 pm    Post subject: Re: New Yamaha Xeno model Reply with quote

blbaumgarn wrote:
I have wondered, since picking up the trumpet again, and looking at many different brands why there is such a difference between the 8335 and 9335 series Yamahas. How do you make a wonderful, even "great" trumpet go for $2000 more is kind of beyond me. To those who can sense the differences between the two horns more power to them. And, I would never tell anyone not to buy or use something. It is their money and decision. The Xeno II is a wonderful horn. Where I buy some music supplies they have a co-owner and a repair guy that both play trumpet. They sell Yamaha, Schilke, and Bach horns. Both play Yamaha and I think that counts for something. That and the fact that Hooten from the LA Philharmonic, Martin of NY Philharmonic, Hagstrom from the CSO, and Bilger from the Philadelphia Orchestra all play Yamaha it says that horns are top quality and they work for their purpose. The whole thing with companies having different code names and numbers denoting marketing strategies, that happens in other industries all the time.


Hi,

A very interesting thread and nice responses from everyone involved!

I do believe that the differences between standard 'professional' and the real top end trumpets is noticeable, but only when you push the instrument to its extremes. So we're talking about there being a small but noticeable amount more resonance on the low G/F# and the notes between high C and high G (or double C if that is of any relevance to the player) being a little more even and (for a player who is very confident in that register already) therefore marginally more predictable, and its a similar story with the response at the extremes of dynamics. A player who wasn't needing these very slight benefits (I'm not suggesting you do or don't!) would not really be able to notice a difference.

Regarding your point about those incredible players all choosing Yamaha I think that, whilst they are all exceptional masters of the instrument and it is indeed a huge endorsement for Yamaha, we should stop short of seeing Yamaha as having conquered the market (I'm not suggesting that you are!) as there is still a great deal of variety in equipment choice across the globe; several of the big name principal trumpets in London are using B&S at the moment, Schagerl (rotaries in particular) appear to have wrapped up Berlin, Vienna, Leipzig (I might be wrong on that one) and many many other European Orchestras. Bach trumpets remain incredibly popular and, surprisingly, there has been an amazing shift to Bach trumpets on the British commercial scene too (traditionally dominated by Yamaha and smaller manufacturers like Smith Watkins and Eclipse), some people have suggested it is partially caused by the 'Louis Dowdeswell effect'?

Hope that adds to the discussion, and apologies if it wasn't strictly on the subject on Xeno trumpets. Feel free to disagree or contradict anything I have said, that is the purpose of a discussion forum!

All the best
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 4424
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kandor wrote:
Thank you for sharing the answer from Yamaha Support.

Hi Kandor

You are very welcome.


Given that your Xeno was sold as "demo", I suspect that it was one of the very first "II" coming out of the factory, and promptly sent from Japan to showrooms worldwide to demonstrate the new model.

Quite possibly I imagine.

If this is the case, I wouldn't be surprised if it is a very good player: meant to be closely examined by enthusiasts and occasionally tried for comparisons against the old model and maybe... a Bach, wouldn't you choose to send a PERFECTLY handcrafted instrument ?

Considering the consistency of Yamaha, it is probably just a bog standard example rather than one that has been manufactured/assembled/finished with greater attention that subsequent ones.

Whatever, it is a very good player.

All the best

Lou


_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 4424
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:42 am    Post subject: Re: New Yamaha Xeno model Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:
blbaumgarn wrote:
I have wondered, since picking up the trumpet again, and looking at many different brands why there is such a difference between the 8335 and 9335 series Yamahas. How do you make a wonderful, even "great" trumpet go for $2000 more is kind of beyond me. To those who can sense the differences between the two horns more power to them. And, I would never tell anyone not to buy or use something. It is their money and decision. The Xeno II is a wonderful horn. Where I buy some music supplies they have a co-owner and a repair guy that both play trumpet. They sell Yamaha, Schilke, and Bach horns. Both play Yamaha and I think that counts for something. That and the fact that Hooten from the LA Philharmonic, Martin of NY Philharmonic, Hagstrom from the CSO, and Bilger from the Philadelphia Orchestra all play Yamaha it says that horns are top quality and they work for their purpose. The whole thing with companies having different code names and numbers denoting marketing strategies, that happens in other industries all the time.


Hi,

A very interesting thread and nice responses from everyone involved!

I do believe that the differences between standard 'professional' and the real top end trumpets is noticeable, but only when you push the instrument to its extremes. So we're talking about there being a small but noticeable amount more resonance on the low G/F# and the notes between high C and high G (or double C if that is of any relevance to the player) being a little more even and (for a player who is very confident in that register already) therefore marginally more predictable, and its a similar story with the response at the extremes of dynamics. A player who wasn't needing these very slight benefits (I'm not suggesting you do or don't!) would not really be able to notice a difference.

Regarding your point about those incredible players all choosing Yamaha I think that, whilst they are all exceptional masters of the instrument and it is indeed a huge endorsement for Yamaha, we should stop short of seeing Yamaha as having conquered the market (I'm not suggesting that you are!) as there is still a great deal of variety in equipment choice across the globe; several of the big name principal trumpets in London are using B&S at the moment, Schagerl (rotaries in particular) appear to have wrapped up Berlin, Vienna, Leipzig (I might be wrong on that one) and many many other European Orchestras. Bach trumpets remain incredibly popular and, surprisingly, there has been an amazing shift to Bach trumpets on the British commercial scene too (traditionally dominated by Yamaha and smaller manufacturers like Smith Watkins and Eclipse), some people have suggested it is partially caused by the 'Louis Dowdeswell effect'?

Hope that adds to the discussion, and apologies if it wasn't strictly on the subject on Xeno trumpets. Feel free to disagree or contradict anything I have said, that is the purpose of a discussion forum!

All the best


Hi

Very interesting, thanks.

I've never played the 9 series Yamaha trumpets, so can say no more than that the 8335 Xeno II is a very good all-around trumpet, that in my opinion particularly excels for classical applications. I'm not personally convinced that it is completely to my taste for more commercial playing, but it is plenty good enough and gets the job done.

Personally I prefer my Bach 37 for more commercial playing. I find my Xeno II to be extremely even in response throughout all registers. I however find it to be a little on the slotty side, even after reducing the mouthpiece gap via sleeves, which for my taste makes it a very accurate and clean sounding trumpet for classical applications. Although very responsive in terms of dynamic control, I personally feel that I am fighting it a little for Jazz. This is a lot to do with me, as I am primary a brass band cornet playing and classical trumpeter, and neat clean playing is what I'm good at already. Tending to sound a little on the straight side for Jazz already, I prefer a looser slotting trumpet for Jazz, which for some reason my Bach 37 is.

I once took both trumpets to my Jazz band, and since we play each number twice, played it on each trumpet. The almost unanimous opinion (the exception being a classical player, who preferred the sound of the Xeno II in particular) was that you can hear that my Bach 37 is more responsive for me in Jazz applications. It sounds jazzier was the opinion of one experienced Jazz trombonist.

It has been ages since I last visited this thread, so if I have said all this already, I apologise. Anyway, my point is that if the 9 series New York and Chicago models are better in classical applications than my already extremely good Xeno II, then they must be fantastic and why the mentioned orchestral players are playing them.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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LSOfanboy
Veteran Member


Joined: 08 Jul 2018
Posts: 347

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:48 am    Post subject: Re: New Yamaha Xeno model Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
LSOfanboy wrote:
blbaumgarn wrote:
I have wondered, since picking up the trumpet again, and looking at many different brands why there is such a difference between the 8335 and 9335 series Yamahas. How do you make a wonderful, even "great" trumpet go for $2000 more is kind of beyond me. To those who can sense the differences between the two horns more power to them. And, I would never tell anyone not to buy or use something. It is their money and decision. The Xeno II is a wonderful horn. Where I buy some music supplies they have a co-owner and a repair guy that both play trumpet. They sell Yamaha, Schilke, and Bach horns. Both play Yamaha and I think that counts for something. That and the fact that Hooten from the LA Philharmonic, Martin of NY Philharmonic, Hagstrom from the CSO, and Bilger from the Philadelphia Orchestra all play Yamaha it says that horns are top quality and they work for their purpose. The whole thing with companies having different code names and numbers denoting marketing strategies, that happens in other industries all the time.


Hi,

A very interesting thread and nice responses from everyone involved!

I do believe that the differences between standard 'professional' and the real top end trumpets is noticeable, but only when you push the instrument to its extremes. So we're talking about there being a small but noticeable amount more resonance on the low G/F# and the notes between high C and high G (or double C if that is of any relevance to the player) being a little more even and (for a player who is very confident in that register already) therefore marginally more predictable, and its a similar story with the response at the extremes of dynamics. A player who wasn't needing these very slight benefits (I'm not suggesting you do or don't!) would not really be able to notice a difference.

Regarding your point about those incredible players all choosing Yamaha I think that, whilst they are all exceptional masters of the instrument and it is indeed a huge endorsement for Yamaha, we should stop short of seeing Yamaha as having conquered the market (I'm not suggesting that you are!) as there is still a great deal of variety in equipment choice across the globe; several of the big name principal trumpets in London are using B&S at the moment, Schagerl (rotaries in particular) appear to have wrapped up Berlin, Vienna, Leipzig (I might be wrong on that one) and many many other European Orchestras. Bach trumpets remain incredibly popular and, surprisingly, there has been an amazing shift to Bach trumpets on the British commercial scene too (traditionally dominated by Yamaha and smaller manufacturers like Smith Watkins and Eclipse), some people have suggested it is partially caused by the 'Louis Dowdeswell effect'?

Hope that adds to the discussion, and apologies if it wasn't strictly on the subject on Xeno trumpets. Feel free to disagree or contradict anything I have said, that is the purpose of a discussion forum!

All the best


Hi

Very interesting, thanks.

I've never played the 9 series Yamaha trumpets, so can say no more than that the 8335 Xeno II is a very good all-around trumpet, that in my opinion particularly excels for classical applications. I'm not personally convinced that it is completely to my taste for more commercial playing, but it is plenty good enough and gets the job done.

Personally I prefer my Bach 37 for more commercial playing. I find my Xeno II to be extremely even in response throughout all registers. I however find it to be a little on the slotty side, even after reducing the mouthpiece gap via sleeves, which for my taste makes it a very accurate and clean sounding trumpet for classical applications. Although very responsive in terms of dynamic control, I personally feel that I am fighting it a little for Jazz. This is a lot to do with me, as I am primary a brass band cornet playing and classical trumpeter, and neat clean playing is what I'm good at already. Tending to sound a little on the straight side for Jazz already, I prefer a looser slotting trumpet for Jazz, which for some reason my Bach 37 is.

I once took both trumpets to my Jazz band, and since we play each number twice, played it on each trumpet. The almost unanimous opinion (the exception being a classical player, who preferred the sound of the Xeno II in particular) was that you can hear that my Bach 37 is more responsive for me in Jazz applications. It sounds jazzier was the opinion of one experienced Jazz trombonist.

It has been ages since I last visited this thread, so if I have said all this already, I apologise. Anyway, my point is that if the 9 series New York and Chicago models are better in classical applications than my already extremely good Xeno II, then they must be fantastic and why the mentioned orchestral players are playing them.

All the best

Lou


Hi Louise,

A great discussion!

I am certainly not looking to start any confrontation, and your previous posts have shown you to be dedicated, calm and humble, you have also used personal phrases such as 'my taste' 'for me' 'personally' etc. which is very wise and show you clearly understand that everyone can have a different experience when it comes to trumpets. I am very keen that my post does not come across as argumentative.

So with that said, I don't entirely agree with your findings here (and you are totally entitled to your opinion!). For me, there isn't such thing as a 'jazzy' or 'classical' trumpet, only different timbres. The rest is about the player and the style they possess. A trumpet can have a brighter or darker sound, more edge or smoothness, warmth or brittleness (which is not always undesirable) but I feel that some of the comments you make are, perhaps, more a reflection on your playing tendencies (which I am by no means criticising) than the trumpet.

In my opinion, one can state that 'this trumpet produces a brighter, more direct sound so I prefer it for X style' but determining the 'style' of a trumpet by the way that it slots (or doesn't) and how 'clean and accurate' it sounds is perhaps not correct.

As I have stressed, you clearly stated that it is your personal opinion and I truly respect that, so don't think I am trying to criticise or patronise! I just thought I would put my view onto the thread since I don't think players like Wayne Bergeron, Bobby Shew (both Yamaha artists) and players potentially closer to home for us such as Mike, Louis D, Ryan, Andy G, Steve Fishwick or Percy Pursglove (some of whom also used to use Yamaha) would necessarily say that a trumpet that slots well is 'not jazzy' or that, by extension; for a trumpet to be 'jazzy' it has to slot loosely. Indeed, I suspect most of those players are looking for the best slotting trumpets they can find (obviously I can't speak directly for them!)

I hope that can add to the discussion and avoids causing any offence.

All the best
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
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Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: New Yamaha Xeno model Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:


Hi Louise,

Hi LSOfanboy


A great discussion!

I hope so!

I am certainly not looking to start any confrontation, and your previous posts have shown you to be dedicated, calm and humble, you have also used personal phrases such as 'my taste' 'for me' 'personally' etc. which is very wise and show you clearly understand that everyone can have a different experience when it comes to trumpets. I am very keen that my post does not come across as argumentative.

No worries.

So with that said, I don't entirely agree with your findings here (and you are totally entitled to your opinion!). For me, there isn't such thing as a 'jazzy' or 'classical' trumpet, only different timbres. The rest is about the player and the style they possess. A trumpet can have a brighter or darker sound, more edge or smoothness, warmth or brittleness (which is not always undesirable) but I feel that some of the comments you make are, perhaps, more a reflection on your playing tendencies (which I am by no means criticising) than the trumpet.

In my opinion, one can state that 'this trumpet produces a brighter, more direct sound so I prefer it for X style' but determining the 'style' of a trumpet by the way that it slots (or doesn't) and how 'clean and accurate' it sounds is perhaps not correct.

Fair enough. Clean and accurate is probably not a particularly good objective description, as it is more a description of the approach of the player, and I was aware of this as I wrote it, but when I hear my sound on my Yamaha Xeno II, the description of clean sounding is what comes to mind. Comparing my Bach 184ML cornet and Xeno cornet, I would describe the sound of my Bach 184ML as narrower more focused with more core, whereas I would describe the sound of my Xeno as wider and more diffuse. I've played less different trumpets than I have cornets, but to me, the sound of the Bach 37 trumpet is a narrower more focused sound with plenty of core. I suppose that the sound of the Xeno II trumpet is along the same lines, but clean is just the word that comes to mind when I hear myself play it. What I am probably referring to is its very even response throughout the registers, which equates to a very even sound.

As I have stressed, you clearly stated that it is your personal opinion and I truly respect that, so don't think I am trying to criticise or patronise! I just thought I would put my view onto the thread since I don't think players like Wayne Bergeron, Bobby Shew (both Yamaha artists) and players potentially closer to home for us such as Mike, Louis D, Ryan, Andy G, Steve Fishwick or Percy Pursglove (some of whom also used to use Yamaha) would necessarily say that a trumpet that slots well is 'not jazzy' or that, by extension; for a trumpet to be 'jazzy' it has to slot loosely. Indeed, I suspect most of those players are looking for the best slotting trumpets they can find (obviously I can't speak directly for them!)

Maybe and I respect your view too, but to me, rather than seeing a trumpet as slotting well or less well, I feel that it is more of a case of a trumpet varying in the security of the slotting. I personally feel that there is a relationship between security of slotting and flexibility, with more secure slotting equating to less flexibility, and less secure slotting equating to greater flexibility. Accuracy probably comes into this too, at least in my opinion, with more secure slotting being synonymous with greater accuracy, and less secure slotting being synonymous with more flexibility with a possible cost to accuracy.

I overall prefer more open trumpets with less secure slotting, so without meaning any offence either, maybe you are right that most of the players you mention, are looking for the best slotting trumpets they can find, but if so, they are looking for something different to me. I personally prefer a little more secure slotting for classical playing, as I feel that it gives me greater confidence especially on upper register entries following many bars rests. I however prefer a looser slotting trumpet for Jazz, as I feel that this gives me greater flexibility. Maybe this is just me, or a limitation of my technique (believe me I have many technical limitations, although I would at least describe myself as a solid and reliable player) or ability to express myself in words.

Regarding the different sounds of trumpets, I agree with what you say, but to me, how a trumpet plays (the amount of blow resistance, response, flexibility, slotting etc) is more important than the specific sound qualities, as long as the sound is appropriate for the style and is a good sound overall. I feel that I tend to predominantly sound like me at the end of the day. Maybe this is a demonstration of what is important to me as a player, and since I don't play at the highest level or anywhere near, I can play instruments which I enjoy playing rather than ones which give a particular sound. It is for this reason that I play a Yamaha Xeno cornet in a section predominantly of Sovereigns. I prefer my sound on the Sovereign, but don't like its playing characteristics.


I hope that can add to the discussion and avoids causing any offence.

You have and I'm not offended.

All the best

All the best to you too

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
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LSOfanboy
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Joined: 08 Jul 2018
Posts: 347

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: New Yamaha Xeno model Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
LSOfanboy wrote:


Hi Louise,

Hi LSOfanboy


A great discussion!

I hope so!

I am certainly not looking to start any confrontation, and your previous posts have shown you to be dedicated, calm and humble, you have also used personal phrases such as 'my taste' 'for me' 'personally' etc. which is very wise and show you clearly understand that everyone can have a different experience when it comes to trumpets. I am very keen that my post does not come across as argumentative.

No worries.

So with that said, I don't entirely agree with your findings here (and you are totally entitled to your opinion!). For me, there isn't such thing as a 'jazzy' or 'classical' trumpet, only different timbres. The rest is about the player and the style they possess. A trumpet can have a brighter or darker sound, more edge or smoothness, warmth or brittleness (which is not always undesirable) but I feel that some of the comments you make are, perhaps, more a reflection on your playing tendencies (which I am by no means criticising) than the trumpet.

In my opinion, one can state that 'this trumpet produces a brighter, more direct sound so I prefer it for X style' but determining the 'style' of a trumpet by the way that it slots (or doesn't) and how 'clean and accurate' it sounds is perhaps not correct.

Fair enough. Clean and accurate is probably not a particularly good objective description, as it is more a description of the approach of the player, and I was aware of this as I wrote it, but when I hear my sound on my Yamaha Xeno II, the description of clean sounding is what comes to mind. Comparing my Bach 184ML cornet and Xeno cornet, I would describe the sound of my Bach 184ML as narrower more focused with more core, whereas I would describe the sound of my Xeno as wider and more diffuse. I've played less different trumpets than I have cornets, but to me, the sound of the Bach 37 trumpet is a narrower more focused sound with plenty of core. I suppose that the sound of the Xeno II trumpet is along the same lines, but clean is just the word that comes to mind when I hear myself play it. What I am probably referring to is its very even response throughout the registers, which equates to a very even sound.

As I have stressed, you clearly stated that it is your personal opinion and I truly respect that, so don't think I am trying to criticise or patronise! I just thought I would put my view onto the thread since I don't think players like Wayne Bergeron, Bobby Shew (both Yamaha artists) and players potentially closer to home for us such as Mike, Louis D, Ryan, Andy G, Steve Fishwick or Percy Pursglove (some of whom also used to use Yamaha) would necessarily say that a trumpet that slots well is 'not jazzy' or that, by extension; for a trumpet to be 'jazzy' it has to slot loosely. Indeed, I suspect most of those players are looking for the best slotting trumpets they can find (obviously I can't speak directly for them!)

Maybe and I respect your view too, but to me, rather than seeing a trumpet as slotting well or less well, I feel that it is more of a case of a trumpet varying in the security of the slotting. I personally feel that there is a relationship between security of slotting and flexibility, with more secure slotting equating to less flexibility, and less secure slotting equating to greater flexibility. Accuracy probably comes into this too, at least in my opinion, with more secure slotting being synonymous with greater accuracy, and less secure slotting being synonymous with more flexibility with a possible cost to accuracy.

I overall prefer more open trumpets with less secure slotting, so without meaning any offence either, maybe you are right that most of the players you mention, are looking for the best slotting trumpets they can find, but if so, they are looking for something different to me. I personally prefer a little more secure slotting for classical playing, as I feel that it gives me greater confidence especially on upper register entries following many bars rests. I however prefer a looser slotting trumpet for Jazz, as I feel that this gives me greater flexibility. Maybe this is just me, or a limitation of my technique (believe me I have many technical limitations, although I would at least describe myself as a solid and reliable player) or ability to express myself in words.

Regarding the different sounds of trumpets, I agree with what you say, but to me, how a trumpet plays (the amount of blow resistance, response, flexibility, slotting etc) is more important than the specific sound qualities, as long as the sound is appropriate for the style and is a good sound overall. I feel that I tend to predominantly sound like me at the end of the day. Maybe this is a demonstration of what is important to me as a player, and since I don't play at the highest level or anywhere near, I can play instruments which I enjoy playing rather than ones which give a particular sound. It is for this reason that I play a Yamaha Xeno cornet in a section predominantly of Sovereigns. I prefer my sound on the Sovereign, but don't like its playing characteristics.


I hope that can add to the discussion and avoids causing any offence.

You have and I'm not offended.

All the best

All the best to you too

Lou


Hi Louise,

A measured and well thought out response- much appreciated!

You have explained yourself both eloquently and humbly, I'm not sure I agree with 100% but this is a very personal subject and, at the end of the day; there is no genuinely right or wrong answer and I can absolutely respect your right to your opinion!

Keep up the banding, it can't be understated what a key part of British musical heritage it is, and the number of colleagues I have who started in, or experienced at some point, brass bands is huge!

All the best
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 4424
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: New Yamaha Xeno model Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:


Hi Louise,

Hi LSOfanboy
A measured and well thought out response- much appreciated!

You are very welcome.

You have explained yourself both eloquently and humbly,

Thank you very much.

I'm not sure I agree with 100% but this is a very personal subject and, at the end of the day; there is no genuinely right or wrong answer and I can absolutely respect your right to your opinion!

Likewise, thanks very much.

Keep up the banding, it can't be understated what a key part of British musical heritage it is, and the number of colleagues I have who started in, or experienced at some point, brass bands is huge!

Thanks very much. I have no intention of giving up brass band playing, it is where my heart lies.

All the best

All the best to you too

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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