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delano
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 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:34 am Post subject: |
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The problem here is that the OP is not talking about his Schilke 24 as a mouthpiece for playing but as a tool for embouchure power building. This should be based on some quote from Renold Schilke which, I suppose, is completely disconnected from it's context.
Let's look what R.S. really said:
Though a medium width cup diameter, rim thickness, rim contour, backbore, cup depth, volume, and shape may be recommended for the average player, as a general rule it is desired to encourage the use of larger sizes as the embouchure develops. A larger cup diameter and cup volume allows more of the lip to vibrate which in turn produces a fuller and more resonant one. This also encourages more lip control and endurance.
So Schilke said something different, not a big mp FOR the development, but bigger IF there is development.
http://schilkeloyalist.com/selecting-mouthpieces/
Indeed is a Bach 1C one of the biggest mp's in use and in priciple only suitable for advanced orchestral players. I believe I made my point clear here above.
But do what you want, there is a certain bunch of posters here that treat posts like this one with:
"Play what works!
Use what gets the job done"!
Maybe they are right. Certainly I don't want to get involved in a discussion like that. |
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Walter Bone
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:55 am Post subject: |
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Yeah delano that was the quote that got me the 24, and now I understand I misinterpreted it.
I will go back to the 11b4 or the BShew jazz (similar to a Bach 2c).
Thanks for the clarification. |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| LSOfanboy wrote: | | A 1C is much more reasonable than a Schilke 24! I don't see the as a contradictory statement at all. |
That may be true, but regarding not taking the advice that bigger is better, isn't a Bach 1 huge?
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LSOfanboy
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | LSOfanboy wrote: | | A 1C is much more reasonable than a Schilke 24! I don't see the as a contradictory statement at all. |
That may be true, but regarding not taking the advice that bigger is better, isn't a Bach 1 huge? |
Hi,
The OP has already suggested he prefers larger sizes.
A Bach 1C is smaller than a 1.
It makes sense to move 'smaller' without going, what would seem, too far. After a Schilke 24 a Bach 3C or 7C could feel tiny!
I'm not trying to put you down, but am trying to support the original statement, which was made good sense and intention and did not deserve to be undermined in the manner it was.
All the best |
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: Beginner on a big mouthpiece, Bb trumpet |
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| Walter Bone wrote: | following the advice of Schilke himself and other fellows, the advice being "get the largest mouthpiece you can find and can play in orther to buld a strong embouchure", I got a Schilke 24 and practicing on it for 2 months now. I have had no problems so far with this approach, given that I have quite full lips. I feel more muscles are involved and getting stronger.
But, are there downsides to this that I am not aware of? Could be there grim consequences in the long run? |
Wow.
Learning to play on a Schilke 24 is like learning to drive on a 18 wheeler big rig. Seriously. I suppose that this is one way to learn, but why?
I think even Ren would say that that statement should be used in moderation.
Also, the full lips = big mouthpiece is kind of overstated. There's much more to it than that, and apparently, it's possible to go overboard with that. Perhaps someone with larger lips should try starting something more like a Bach 5-3ish or Schilke 12-14 rather than a Schilke 6 or Bach 17. That's about as far as I'd go with that.
As for consequences, they're not grim, but I'd guess at some point there are some.
The reality is that very, very few trumpet players can play well and efficiently with that sized mouthpieces, and they're almost all professional symphony players with decades of experience. I have no doubt that you can sound alright on it, but at some point that huge diameter is going to limit you in terms of range, endurance, focus and tone. Frankly, it probably already has, you just don't know any differently.
There is a thought that "bigger is better." Jen's mouthpiece rant is a great counterpoint to that, and well worth reading. Basically, I think a larger mouthpiece is fine for many, it gives you a bit more room to buzz, it often allows a better tone. However, there is a point were your ability to focus your embouchure becomes limited. That caps your range. If you're working too hard to play, that limits your endurance. A lack of focus also hurts your tone quality because it it less focused, and can become more dull. When I played a bored-out Bach 1, I could blow the roof down, but my prof though my tone quality was much better on a smaller diameter.
Using one size for "training" and another for performing is a dead end for a beginner. You're trying to develop a feel, a facility for finding slots and pitches and consistency in size is important to that. That doesn't mean you shouldn't switch sizes at some point (you should consider doing that now), it just means there's little benefit to using more than one size regularly. If you need to size up (or down) and then do so and stick with it and don't go back and forth. At some point you can be a bit more flexible with mouthpiece size, but I'd say for the first five years, at least, don't bounce around with different sizes.
Any mouthpiece you move to from your 24 is going to feel smaller. That's because you started off with perhaps the biggest mouthpiece around. For real. I only personally know 2 people who used something in the neighborhood of what you've got and it was after years of playing and helped to work around a chipped tooth.
Anyway, good luck.
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| LSOfanboy wrote: | | I'm not trying to put you down, but am trying to support the original statement, which was made good sense and intention and did not deserve to be undermined in the manner it was. |
"Undermined"? I was just asking an honest question, sheesh.
Last edited by kehaulani on Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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LSOfanboy
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | LSOfanboy wrote: | | I'm not trying to put you down, but am trying to support the original statement, which was made good sense and intention and did not deserve to be undermined in the manner it was. |
"Undermined"? I was just asking an honest question, sheesh. |
Hi,
Then you might consider the manner in which you write. Honest questions and opinions are always welcome and add to the discussions across this site.
Short smart comments like your original post do not benefit the discussion, and do not add your own (valuable) opinion to the thread, they simply serve to undermine another person's opinion.
I don't want to appear sensitive, but I have noticed this trait across several threads and am convinced the site will be improved if people took a little time to consider their comments before making them.
You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, indeed it would be welcomed, but other individuals are entitled to a balanced response without this petty 'sniping' from the sidelines.
With the best intention and wishes. |
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TKSop
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| LSOfanboy wrote: | | kehaulani wrote: | | LSOfanboy wrote: | | I'm not trying to put you down, but am trying to support the original statement, which was made good sense and intention and did not deserve to be undermined in the manner it was. |
"Undermined"? I was just asking an honest question, sheesh. |
Hi,
Then you might consider the manner in which you write. Honest questions and opinions are always welcome and add to the discussions across this site.
Short smart comments like your original post do not benefit the discussion, and do not add your own (valuable) opinion to the thread, they simply serve to undermine another person's opinion.
I don't want to appear sensitive, but I have noticed this trait across several threads and am convinced the site will be improved if people took a little time to consider their comments before making them.
You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, indeed it would be welcomed, but other individuals are entitled to a balanced response without this petty 'sniping' from the sidelines.
With the best intention and wishes. |
Having said this, there's balance too - big long pages of text put some people off reading and some posters try to keep it short and to the point to avoid their posts being a waste of time (I'm not very good at this).
I didn't see anything objectionable, but we're all different. |
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Walter Bone
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Beginner on a big mouthpiece, Bb trumpet |
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| Crazy Finn wrote: |
Using one size for "training" and another for performing is a dead end for a beginner. You're trying to develop a feel, a facility for finding slots and pitches and consistency in size is important to that. That doesn't mean you shouldn't switch sizes at some point (you should consider doing that now), it just means there's little benefit to using more than one size regularly. If you need to size up (or down) and then do so and stick with it and don't go back and forth. At some point you can be a bit more flexible with mouthpiece size, but I'd say for the first five years, at least, don't bounce around with different sizes.
.
Anyway, good luck. |
Thanks.
Today I practiced on the smaller MPs I have, still have to decide which one I will stick with or maybe buy another one. Fortunately I was able to go back at them with not much distress.
Would be a reasonable idea to try something with a shallow cup? Or it's not advised for beginners? It's just because I have MPs in B, C and D cup (Yamaha) and I am curious how an A would feel. Something say like a 14a4 (with standard backbore, not a 14a4a) either from Schilke or Yamaha.
If this sounds silly, have patience!  |
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TKSop
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Beginner on a big mouthpiece, Bb trumpet |
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| Walter Bone wrote: |
Thanks.
Today I practiced on the smaller MPs I have, still have to decide which one I will stick with or maybe buy another one. Fortunately I was able to go back at them with not much distress.
Would be a reasonable idea to try something with a shallow cup? Or it's not advised for beginners? It's just because I have MPs in B, C and D cup (Yamaha) and I am curious how an A would feel. Something say like a 14a4 (with standard backbore, not a 14a4a) either from Schilke or Yamaha.
If this sounds silly, have patience! |
With patience...
Curiousity leads some more-experienced players to spend plenty of time (and money) trying lots of different mouthpieces and can often wind up going in circles chasing magic combinations.
All mouthpieces are a set of compromises, every single one.
So-called "specialist" mouthpieces are a very specific set of compromises - where an all-rounder is fairly balanced all-round, the specialist pieces excel in certain areas at the expense of restricting others.
"Screech" pieces (a4a's and near enough anything marketed as "lead") favour upper register stamina, stability of slotting and focused/projecting tone at the expense of tonal flexibility, margin of error and quiet response...
All of which is an acceptable compromise if you're a specialised player requiring those strengths and able to deal with those drawbacks - and developed enough to use them properly.
While still in early stages of developing, you don't want specialist gear and you don't want to be dealing with different sets of compromises on a regular basis - without being rude, your playing habits aren't refined enough to benefit from that.
Pick one sensible size, sensible cup piece and stick with it - it's boring, but it's the wisest course.
Your Yamaha pieces are well made pieces, the 11b4 or 11c4 will do the job just fine... If they feel uncomfortably small (give it a go first, you may adapt) going up to the 13 rim on the B or C cup is still within reasonable bounds - either way, settle on sensible and stay there for now. |
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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What he said (above).
Avoid overly shallow and overly deep cups. A "c" or "b" cup should be fine. FWI - A Bach "A" cup is fairly deep, and Schiller/Yamaha "A" cup is quite shallow.
The Yamaha Bobby Shew Jazz piece is a variation on a Bach 3C, a nice moderate size. In terms of Yamaha sizes, it would be something along the lines of the 14B4.
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Walter Bone
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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Nice, well explained.
Thank you all very much! |
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chapahi
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:31 am Post subject: |
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I wouldn't say the consequences would be grim but you'd be missing out. Large symphonic mouthpieces are great for some things but in a lot of genres the added sound is an encumbrance.
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trombahonker
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| TKSop wrote: | Pick one sensible size, sensible cup piece and stick with it - it's boring, but it's the wisest course....
11b4 or 11c4 will do the job just fine... If they feel uncomfortably small...going up to the 13 rim on the B or C cup is still within reasonable bounds - either way, settle on sensible and stay there for now. |
I don't agree with this and it's something I see too many people say and repeat in their attempt to make this question have an easy answer. I have a couple young beginner students with big, thick lips who I have on large mouthpieces (one a 1 1/2c, the other a 1c). Making a kid with big fleshy lips play the same mouthpiece a kid with little thin tiny lips plays in the name of "that's the beginner mouthpiece" is silly. It's ratio and proportion, just as with professionals. My 7th grader who came to me on a 7c had terrible shifting problems, could go above the staff, and low register was nonexistent. Well, he has huge lips, and a large cupid's bow and tubercle, so on the small 7c he was essentially unable to make an aperture. On the 1C, well now he can actually make an embouchure and progress!
Certainly don't mess with throats or backbores or any of that crap, but if you have big chunky lips, playing a 1C, 1 1/4C, or 1 1/2C or another quality, unmodified name-brand mouthpiece (Bach, Yamaha) mouthpiece is NOT an unreasonable or bad idea at all and may very well allow faster development.
However, the Schilke 24 is well outside of anything that is considered "normal". It is a tremendous outlier in terms of size and I don't think that's a good place to be.
Playing "too big" with the idea that it will develop an embouchure is based on false logic. Learning to play the trumpet isn't really "developing muscle" as much as "training the muscles to do what you want within this newly defined object", and thus developing neural pathways for communicating with your embouchure. If you've got big lips, playing too small of a mouthpiece in the beginning can unnecessarily restrict muscles from allowing you to easily discover how to do and control things, and it may even develop bad pathways for communication because of those physical constraints. Inversely, playing a disproportionately large mouthpiece (ie Schilke 24) can create imbalance in an embouchure and result in slow development due to the gross inefficiencies it allows.
SO if you've got big lips, play a big stock mouthpiece, but not a Schilke 24.
~A
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LSOfanboy
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| trombahonker wrote: | | TKSop wrote: | Pick one sensible size, sensible cup piece and stick with it - it's boring, but it's the wisest course....
11b4 or 11c4 will do the job just fine... If they feel uncomfortably small...going up to the 13 rim on the B or C cup is still within reasonable bounds - either way, settle on sensible and stay there for now. |
I don't agree with this and it's something I see too many people say and repeat in their attempt to make this question have an easy answer. I have a couple young beginner students with big, thick lips who I have on large mouthpieces (one a 1 1/2c, the other a 1c). Making a kid with big fleshy lips play the same mouthpiece a kid with little thin tiny lips plays in the name of "that's the beginner mouthpiece" is silly. It's ratio and proportion, just as with professionals. My 7th grader who came to me on a 7c had terrible shifting problems, could go above the staff, and low register was nonexistent. Well, he has huge lips, and a large cupid's bow and tubercle, so on the small 7c he was essentially unable to make an aperture. On the 1C, well now he can actually make an embouchure and progress!
Certainly don't mess with throats or backbores or any of that crap, but if you have big chunky lips, playing a 1C, 1 1/4C, or 1 1/2C or another quality, unmodified name-brand mouthpiece (Bach, Yamaha) mouthpiece is NOT an unreasonable or bad idea at all and may very well allow faster development.
However, the Schilke 24 is well outside of anything that is considered "normal". It is a tremendous outlier in terms of size and I don't think that's a good place to be.
Playing "too big" with the idea that it will develop an embouchure is based on false logic. Learning to play the trumpet isn't really "developing muscle" as much as "training the muscles to do what you want within this newly defined object", and thus developing neural pathways for communicating with your embouchure. If you've got big lips, playing too small of a mouthpiece in the beginning can unnecessarily restrict muscles from allowing you to easily discover how to do and control things, and it may even develop bad pathways for communication because of those physical constraints. Inversely, playing a disproportionately large mouthpiece (ie Schilke 24) can create imbalance in an embouchure and result in slow development due to the gross inefficiencies it allows.
SO if you've got big lips, play a big stock mouthpiece, but not a Schilke 24.
~A |
Yes, FWIW, I think this is fantastic advice.
All the best |
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TKSop
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| trombahonker wrote: | | TKSop wrote: | Pick one sensible size, sensible cup piece and stick with it - it's boring, but it's the wisest course....
11b4 or 11c4 will do the job just fine... If they feel uncomfortably small...going up to the 13 rim on the B or C cup is still within reasonable bounds - either way, settle on sensible and stay there for now. |
I don't agree with this and it's something I see too many people say and repeat in their attempt to make this question have an easy answer. I have a couple young beginner students with big, thick lips who I have on large mouthpieces (one a 1 1/2c, the other a 1c). Making a kid with big fleshy lips play the same mouthpiece a kid with little thin tiny lips plays in the name of "that's the beginner mouthpiece" is silly. It's ratio and proportion, just as with professionals. My 7th grader who came to me on a 7c had terrible shifting problems, could go above the staff, and low register was nonexistent. Well, he has huge lips, and a large cupid's bow and tubercle, so on the small 7c he was essentially unable to make an aperture. On the 1C, well now he can actually make an embouchure and progress!
Certainly don't mess with throats or backbores or any of that crap, but if you have big chunky lips, playing a 1C, 1 1/4C, or 1 1/2C or another quality, unmodified name-brand mouthpiece (Bach, Yamaha) mouthpiece is NOT an unreasonable or bad idea at all and may very well allow faster development.
However, the Schilke 24 is well outside of anything that is considered "normal". It is a tremendous outlier in terms of size and I don't think that's a good place to be.
Playing "too big" with the idea that it will develop an embouchure is based on false logic. Learning to play the trumpet isn't really "developing muscle" as much as "training the muscles to do what you want within this newly defined object", and thus developing neural pathways for communicating with your embouchure. If you've got big lips, playing too small of a mouthpiece in the beginning can unnecessarily restrict muscles from allowing you to easily discover how to do and control things, and it may even develop bad pathways for communication because of those physical constraints. Inversely, playing a disproportionately large mouthpiece (ie Schilke 24) can create imbalance in an embouchure and result in slow development due to the gross inefficiencies it allows.
SO if you've got big lips, play a big stock mouthpiece, but not a Schilke 24.
~A |
Fwiw, I don't agree with this either.
The question does, for the most part have an easy answer - working consistently on a sensible sized piece with a good instructor will be perfectly adequate for the vast majority of players.
The number of players with humoungous fleshy lips and cupids bows necessitating huge mouthpieces is very, very small - in short, I don't believe in using outliers to build general rules.
This is essentially the crux of Jen's famous mouthpieces "rant" - general advice should be tailored to the majority of cases...
Most players aren't specialist players requiring extreme equipment and equally I'd say most aren't genetic outliers who need extreme sizes.
IMHO s Bach 1-anything is bigger than the majority of people who believe (or have been told) they need one actually needs...
And reading "big lips = big mouthpiece" regularly us only going to increase that number - IMHO it's advice that should only be given in person, for a good reason and then monitored carefully. |
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trombahonker
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| TKSop wrote: | | IMHO it's advice that should only be given in person, for a good reason and then monitored carefully. |
very true
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Ed Kennedy
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Ed Kennedy wrote: | http://storkcustom.com/how-your-lips-dictate-your-mouthpiece-choice/
Lip types and mouthpiece choice - Phyllis Stork |
I think self-diagnosis from those pictures can seriously lead one astray.
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blbaumgarn
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:46 pm Post subject: Beginner on a Big Mouthpiece |
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I would agree with the two contributors above. I was perhaps a junior in h.s. and played at music contest and afterward two of the judges told me to come back during a break. They both said "you have a big sound which you can perhaps make broader and enhance with a bigger mpc. This was like 1967 and they recommended a Bach 1c. It was an adjustment because I used to do alot on range enhancment and the 1c made that work for a while. But, because I had quite a bit of experience and was more "ready" it was my mpc. for quite a few years. I am 68 and when I restarted playing about 9 months ago it was on a 3c Bach and I now have a 5c which is nice, too. I favor learning the trumpet from somewhere in the middle and working on the lower and higher registers through training. Now, my lower register stinks, but I am the one that has to build the musculature. I can't supplant training and musculature with a mpc. There is a letter from Jens Lindeman on mouthpiece logic that was in the trumpet herald some years ago that I think has a ton of common sense. Good Luck.
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