Energy and Power

[kalijah]

Have you ever considered that sound, as in the tone that transmits from the trumpet when played, has an amount of energy? Or more specifically, the flow of energy at any instant is the power of the sound. ( as in some quantity such as watts)

That being the case, have you considered the source of that power? And that the source MUST supply, at least, that amount of power?

[solo soprano]

No.
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Bill Knevitt, who taught me the seven basic physical elements and the ten principles of physical trumpet playing and how to develop them.
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[Andy Del]

Yes.

Or more to the point, this is something I teach: that one must put energy into their playing in order to get sound out as sound needs an energy source.

Translating that into making a sound on a brass instrument, I work with kids to put the energy into their air flow rather than left arm, screwing up their face, and all the normal contortions one sees. I also ask them to use some energy to hold the face still...

For those that listen and need to redirect their efforts it seems to work... (actually practicing does as well)

cheers

Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes...

[kalijah]

Thanks Andy. Thanks solo soprano.

[Irving]

Interesting topic. I'm assuming that you aren't speaking about the intensity of sound, or decibels. It would seem like to produce any amount of sound would require some amount of power. Playing very softly requires a certain amount of energy, which shouldn't be underestimated. Volume and register would seem to regulate how much power is needed. The source? A combination of factors that we need to provide, that need to be properly balanced in order to produce the desired sound.

[Billy B]

Yell HEY! as loud as you can.

That's energy.
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Bill Bergren

[mm55]

The original post mentioned energy and power. Sound engery, sound power, sound intensity, and sound pressure (popularly measured in "decibels"), are four very different things, and cannot be equated. They are inter-related, but they are different quantities, with different units. Sound power is measured in watts (W), sound intensity is in watts per square meter (W/m²), pressure in pascals (Pa), [but commonly converted to decibels of sound pressure (dB SPL)], and sound energy is in joules (J). There is no equivalence between these quantities.

When a value is cited in simple decibels (dB), it typically refers to sound pressure level, NOT intensity, NOT power, and NOT energy.

I know I've been attacked in PMs for suggesting this, but if you try to equate one of these quantities with another, then you're not basing the discussion on the physics of the real world. If everyone has their own personal "definition", then there is little common ground for discussion.
_________________
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'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
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[LSOfanboy]

[lambchop]

[mm55]

Yes, the OP made the distinction between energy and power. Another post seemed to equate pressure ("decibels") with intensity. In the absence of further clarification, "decibels" is usually taken to mean sound pressure, not intensity. And of course, in other threads, it's very popular to scramble air volume (m³), air velocity (m/s), air flow (m³/s for volume flow; kg/s for mass flow), and air pressure (Pa).
_________________
'75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg

[Irving]

Yes, I am the guilty party so off to the pillory I go. However, anticipating that I would misuse yet another word, I decided to look up the word " decibel ". Apparently, both sources I used misdefined the word as well. So it was sound pressure being measured by the police when the neighbors complained about my practicing?

BTW, what actually causes damage to our hearing then?

[kalijah]

[Don Herman rev2]

Note decibel, i.e. one-tenth of a Bel, is meaningless without context. For voltage or current dB = 20 * log10(V2/v1); for power dB = 10 * log10(P2/p1), and so forth. Sometimes you see dBV, dBW, dBm (milliwatts), and such but you can apply the "dB equation" to many things. Generally for audio when you hear "dB" people mean dB SPL as seen on an SPL meter, thus SPL = Sound Pressure Level is pressure measured in Pascals and expressed in dB relative to a minimum pressure reference, normally 20 micro-Pascals in air.

HTH - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

[John Mohan]

[kalijah]

The muscles do provide the force to increase ( or decrease) the lung air pressure but the effort required varies depending upon how much air is in the lungs at any instant. But the muscles of exhalation and inhalation, by concious action, do control the air pressure amount while playing.

But pressure is not power.

Pressure is actually "energy density". That is, energy = pressure x volume. (And by volume I do mean volume. As in m**3 or liter.)

Power is energy/ time or energy change/time.

so then; power = pressure x volume/time

and therefore; power = pressure x flow

THAT, pressure x flow, is the total power that a player applies to playing at any instant. But not all of that power becomes sound power. (Also notice that air "speed" is not what defines power)

Also, the "lost" power is primarily due to the air flow resistance that is encountered BEFORE the instrument. That includes ANY resistance from the lungs up to and including the apperture.

[JVL]

Rectus abdominus ? that's american latin

To be more precise, all energetical pathways are involved whatever the effort; only the ratio of their involvement varies depending on the intensity of the effort.
So, even for a maximal effort of 7 seconds, the aerobic way in involved. Not as much as anaerobic pathway, of course, but it's involved.

I think, John, my english is as correct as your "abdominus"

[John Mohan]

[JVL]

I think you're too much fair-play.
Not only "English" instead of "english" was wrong, but the syntax is almost everytime wrong too !

[JVL]

Yeah, great !
The legend has changed one Pierre de Coubertin's sentence in "The most important thing is to participate"
Let's speak foreign languages, everyone with his own possibilities and talent

best

[John Mohan]