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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:11 pm Post subject: Energy and Power |
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Have you ever considered that sound, as in the tone that transmits from the trumpet when played, has an amount of energy? Or more specifically, the flow of energy at any instant is the power of the sound. ( as in some quantity such as watts)
That being the case, have you considered the source of that power? And that the source MUST supply, at least, that amount of power? |
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solo soprano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 856 Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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Yes.
Or more to the point, this is something I teach: that one must put energy into their playing in order to get sound out as sound needs an energy source.
Translating that into making a sound on a brass instrument, I work with kids to put the energy into their air flow rather than left arm, screwing up their face, and all the normal contortions one sees. I also ask them to use some energy to hold the face still...
For those that listen and need to redirect their efforts it seems to work... (actually practicing does as well)
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Andy. Thanks solo soprano. |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1887
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Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:26 am Post subject: |
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Interesting topic. I'm assuming that you aren't speaking about the intensity of sound, or decibels. It would seem like to produce any amount of sound would require some amount of power. Playing very softly requires a certain amount of energy, which shouldn't be underestimated. Volume and register would seem to regulate how much power is needed. The source? A combination of factors that we need to provide, that need to be properly balanced in order to produce the desired sound. |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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Yell HEY! as loud as you can.
That's energy. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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mm55 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1412
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:34 am Post subject: |
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The original post mentioned energy and power. Sound engery, sound power, sound intensity, and sound pressure (popularly measured in "decibels"), are four very different things, and cannot be equated. They are inter-related, but they are different quantities, with different units. Sound power is measured in watts (W), sound intensity is in watts per square meter (W/m²), pressure in pascals (Pa), [but commonly converted to decibels of sound pressure (dB SPL)], and sound energy is in joules (J). There is no equivalence between these quantities.
When a value is cited in simple decibels (dB), it typically refers to sound pressure level, NOT intensity, NOT power, and NOT energy.
I know I've been attacked in PMs for suggesting this, but if you try to equate one of these quantities with another, then you're not basing the discussion on the physics of the real world. If everyone has their own personal "definition", then there is little common ground for discussion. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
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LSOfanboy Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2018 Posts: 347
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:14 am Post subject: |
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mm55 wrote: | The original post mentioned energy and power. Sound engery, sound power, sound intensity, and sound pressure (popularly measured in "decibels"), are four very different things, and cannot be equated. They are inter-related, but they are different quantities, with different units. Sound power is measured in watts (W), sound intensity is in watts per square meter (W/m²), pressure in pascals (Pa), [but commonly converted to decibels of sound pressure (dB SPL)], and sound energy is in joules (J). There is no equivalence between these quantities.
When a value is cited in simple decibels (dB), it typically refers to sound pressure level, NOT intensity, NOT power, and NOT energy.
I know I've been attacked in PMs for suggesting this, but if you try to equate one of these quantities with another, then you're not basing the discussion on the physics of the real world. If everyone has their own personal "definition", then there is little common ground for discussion. |
This post is absolutely on the money! |
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lambchop Regular Member
Joined: 19 Apr 2017 Posts: 74
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:31 am Post subject: |
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mm55 wrote: | The original post mentioned energy and power. Sound engery, sound power, sound intensity, and sound pressure (popularly measured in "decibels"), are four very different things, and cannot be equated. They are inter-related, but they are different quantities, with different units. Sound power is measured in watts (W), sound intensity is in watts per square meter (W/m²), pressure in pascals (Pa), [but commonly converted to decibels of sound pressure (dB SPL)], and sound energy is in joules (J). There is no equivalence between these quantities.
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Agree, but the OP did not make any wrong equivalences, he is considering energy and power as the flow of energy. Oh, I guess you mean later talk about power and sound intensity. |
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mm55 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1412
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:51 am Post subject: |
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Yes, the OP made the distinction between energy and power. Another post seemed to equate pressure ("decibels") with intensity. In the absence of further clarification, "decibels" is usually taken to mean sound pressure, not intensity. And of course, in other threads, it's very popular to scramble air volume (m³), air velocity (m/s), air flow (m³/s for volume flow; kg/s for mass flow), and air pressure (Pa). _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1887
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I am the guilty party so off to the pillory I go. However, anticipating that I would misuse yet another word, I decided to look up the word " decibel ". Apparently, both sources I used misdefined the word as well. So it was sound pressure being measured by the police when the neighbors complained about my practicing?
BTW, what actually causes damage to our hearing then? |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:42 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | And of course, in other threads, it's very popular to scramble air volume (m³), air velocity (m/s), air flow (m³/s for volume flow; kg/s for mass flow), and air pressure (Pa). |
Many times the intent is known but an inaccurate term is used. For example, air "volume" is used when attempting to describe flow. But in other cases, the intent is difficult to decipher. Example: "air speed" is used to describe air pressure or air flow.
It is interesting how some insist on using the term "volume" to describe flow. Apparently, this is something that has become a part of popular "trumpet-speak" lingo. Inaccurately used by several. Including some well-known players/teachers and one trumpet-maker that really should know better.
Last edited by kalijah on Wed May 31, 2023 5:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Don Herman rev2 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Note decibel, i.e. one-tenth of a Bel, is meaningless without context. For voltage or current dB = 20 * log10(V2/v1); for power dB = 10 * log10(P2/p1), and so forth. Sometimes you see dBV, dBW, dBm (milliwatts), and such but you can apply the "dB equation" to many things. Generally for audio when you hear "dB" people mean dB SPL as seen on an SPL meter, thus SPL = Sound Pressure Level is pressure measured in Pascals and expressed in dB relative to a minimum pressure reference, normally 20 micro-Pascals in air.
HTH - Don _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:28 am Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | Have you ever considered that sound, as in the tone that transmits from the trumpet when played, has an amount of energy? Or more specifically, the flow of energy at any instant is the power of the sound. ( as in some quantity such as watts)
That being the case, have you considered the source of that power? And that the source MUST supply, at least, that amount of power? |
I would consider the source of that power to be the muscles of forced expiration (internal intercostals, rectus abdominus, obliques and a few others) which provide the air pressure necessary for tone production to occur. Delving deeper, one could cite the source of the power as being the three different ways muscles provide energy for contraction:
A) Direct phosphorylation for the first 15 seconds of muscle contraction (no oxygen used).
B) Anaerobic pathway (Glycolysis) for the next 30 to 40 seconds of muscle contraction (no oxygen used).
C) Aerobic pathway (Cellular Respiration) which can last for hours (and uses oxygen).
Regarding the fact that the power source must supply at least the amount of power being used - of course. I would argue that the power source must supply more than that which is required due to compensate for the power lost due to inherent inefficiencies (example: the power supplied by the abdominal muscles will be partially used to compress the viscera between them and the lungs).
I'm not sure how considering this would help one be a better player, except perhaps by reinforcing the fact that to be a good trumpet player with good sound, range and endurance, one needs to develop the required muscles (and of course the necessary coordination).
Cheers,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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The muscles do provide the force to increase ( or decrease) the lung air pressure but the effort required varies depending upon how much air is in the lungs at any instant. But the muscles of exhalation and inhalation, by concious action, do control the air pressure amount while playing.
But pressure is not power.
Pressure is actually "energy density". That is, energy = pressure x volume. (And by volume I do mean volume. As in m**3 or liter.)
Power is energy/ time or energy change/time.
so then; power = pressure x volume/time
and therefore; power = pressure x flow
THAT, pressure x flow, is the total power that a player applies to playing at any instant. But not all of that power becomes sound power. (Also notice that air "speed" is not what defines power)
Also, the "lost" power is primarily due to the air flow resistance that is encountered BEFORE the instrument. That includes ANY resistance from the lungs up to and including the apperture. |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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Rectus abdominus ? that's american latin
To be more precise, all energetical pathways are involved whatever the effort; only the ratio of their involvement varies depending on the intensity of the effort.
So, even for a maximal effort of 7 seconds, the aerobic way in involved. Not as much as anaerobic pathway, of course, but it's involved.
I think, John, my english is as correct as your "abdominus" |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:12 am Post subject: |
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JVL wrote: | Rectus abdominus ? that's american latin
To be more precise, all energetical pathways are involved whatever the effort; only the ratio of their involvement varies depending on the intensity of the effort.
So, even for a maximal effort of 7 seconds, the aerobic way in involved. Not as much as anaerobic pathway, of course, but it's involved.
I think, John, my english is as correct as your "abdominus" |
Regarding the shared involvement, yes of course. I was just trying to keep it simple.
And yes, you have me on the spelling. Abdominis. Now my turn: the term is "English" (capitalized). But that said, your abilities with the English language are a quantum leap beyond my French capabilities. N'est-ce pas? (And yes, I had to look that up to make sure I spelled it correctly.)
https://youtu.be/DAbX-M0Sbn8?t=51s |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:21 am Post subject: |
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I think you're too much fair-play.
Not only "English" instead of "english" was wrong, but the syntax is almost everytime wrong too ! |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, great !
The legend has changed one Pierre de Coubertin's sentence in "The most important thing is to participate"
Let's speak foreign languages, everyone with his own possibilities and talent
best |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:40 am Post subject: |
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