Lip Flexibility - Need New Ideas

joskelker · New Member Joined: 27 Jun 2013 Posts: 6

Hi all,

For years I have been working on my lip flexibility and I am always struggling to make progress. I work with all the standard books, Colins, Irons, etc. Working with various teachers I have tried many different things such as practising on the mouthpiece, lip flexibility with flutter tonguing, making sure I'm not playing with any pressure, and so on.

To be clear, my lip flexibility is not terrible, I'm just far from happy with it and it can't really be described as being good. For instance, I would like to be able to play Clarke's first Characteristic Study at the marked tempo (120), but struggle to get past 100. Also, lip trilling is simply impossible at the moment.

I was just wondering if anyone had any ideas that I could try. I'm pretty happy to give anything a go.

Thanks!

LSOfanboy · Veteran Member Joined: 08 Jul 2018 Posts: 347

joskelker · New Member Joined: 27 Jun 2013 Posts: 6

Hi,

Thanks for your reply! A few months ago I made a slight change to my embouchure, bringing the center of my lips slightly forward so that they stay more 'fleshy', while keeping things firm at the corners, particularly underneath the edges of the lower lip.

At first I thought that I had cracked it, and in the weeks that followed my flexibility certainly improved a bit. However, I now seem to have hit some kind of wall, and haven't made any progress in quite a few weeks.

I will certainly take on board what you said and experiment with keeping my face as relaxed as possible. Obviously some tension is needed to keep things in place, but I think understand what you are getting. It's easy to see in the Vizzutti clip, he almost has a ring of muscles within which everything looks to be very relaxed.

Anyway, this is certainly something I will experiment with!

Many thanks again!

kehaulani · Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:28 am Post subject:

This is a little hard for me to explain, but I hope it communicates, anyway.

I played saxophone and flute professionally for twenty years and, when contrasted with how I used to physically "muscle" my way into wide leaps (and high notes) on trumpet, the octave keys were a piece if cake, requiring (relatively) little change in physical use. In other words, I just pushed a lever and an octave popped out.

I found myself using that saxophone mentality applied to leaps on trumpet. I use much less physical over- support and can play much more relaxed with much less reaction.

My flexibility on trumpet has really cleaned up and is much easier, much more relaxed. My range has gone from a playable high C, reliable A above the staff to a workable E above high C and a playable Double High C with easier flexibility as a spin off. Relaxation - or said differently, less physical tension - have made a big difference.
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Rod Haney · Heavyweight Member Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937

I have always been a flexible player but was limited in range to a good hi c after playing for a few hours. I knew I was playing with too much tension in the lip as if I could control the vibrating part. I experimented with how much and upper or lower lip I used in the mouthpiece playing MF trying to get as big a sound as possible n the staff, I eliminated all the settings that didn’t work and were uncomfortable. When I found comfortable places playing n the staff I noted them and moved up an octave and down an octave and eliminated all the settings (where mouthpiece is side to side upper or lower lip, etc.) that didn’t work. Then I picked out the few left and played with them awhile, and now Ive been using the same setting for a month and a half and have found a full 3rd in range at the end of a 3 hour session, and a sound with more resonance and core. I dont know where that would place anyone else’s sweet spot but the process helped me find mine. I always kept comfort high and then the ability in each setting, and the settings that worked came out. I found one truly freak hi note setting, but woke up the next morning with a lip like a sausage and a pinhole inside my lip nowhere close to the mouthpiece. I quit exploring that quickly. I think everyone can find this, but you have to be willing to experiment and try a lot of things. Discovery by elimination. I found 3 fairly good setting/placements for me but one lets me play with less effort and more endurance.

My goal was to get the area inside the cup to be free to go with the air. I was amazed that finding the proper placement had so much to do with finding this feeling. Everything I been able to learn and transition into practice having to do with just letting it happen as your body works best has been gold for me. I do think you are your own best teacher (with guidance).

I also had beaten myself up with flexibility exercises. Like the post above, I agree that key is in keeping the vibrating surface able to respond to the air. Visutti and the last guy demonstrate this as well as Ive seen. You can see the elasticity in this area. Just another idea to try??
Rod
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Blackquill · Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:06 pm Post subject:

Just wondering... do you struggle with lip slurs only at high tempos, or do you struggle with them at slower tempos, too?
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joskelker · New Member Joined: 27 Jun 2013 Posts: 6

Thanks for your replies everyone. The theme seems to be finding a more relaxed way to play lip slurs, something I will certainly be experimenting with.

Interestingly, I have never really had an issue with range, I can play a 3 octave scale starting on G below the stave with relative ease, so I'm not sure how that relates to flexibility.

I struggle with lip slurs at all tempos, in particular switching between harmonics (i.e. no change in the valves).

I'll report back if I make any progress.

Thanks again!

bach_again · Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:12 am Post subject:

deanoaks · Regular Member Joined: 02 Apr 2015 Posts: 75 Location: US

Hello!
I just wanted to share the few lip flexibility exercises I used when I was younger and what I use now. Since I am not there to hear you, I do not want to try to diagnose your playing.
I really enjoyed the Allen Vizzutti flexibility exercises. I know that they are variations of the Arbans, but I just enjoyed the way he laid out the exercises. Kept them fun. I would be wary of the lip trill exercises towards the back. I think he labels them not as lip flexibility exercises but range building.
James Thompson Buzzing Basics 3B and beyond exercises (back of the book)
I feel people infrequently mention these, but I feel like this is a very healthy way to approach lip flexibility and maintain proper lip to air balance.
Recently I've LOVED Scott Belck's book Modern Flexibilities for Brass.
There is a short 1-line exercise for lip trills in the Stamp book which I also adore.

Of course, I used Arbans and Bai Lin as well, but done improperly I feel those can do more harm than good.

I've picked up the natural trumpet and now I practice Ed Tarr as well as Paul Plunkett's method books. They don't translate to modern trumpet awfully well, but feel free to give them a go!

Godspeed!

brassmusician · Veteran Member Joined: 25 Feb 2016 Posts: 273

A different angle to think about is your mouthpiece. It is worth considering if it is restricting your flexibility. I have found if I play an internal diameter that is too small my flexibility is greatly restricted, moving to a larger diameter helped a lot with this. Also I have found I get better flexibility and better execution of the lips with narrower rims (although there is some variation in what works best even here). Just got to find that compromise, going too narrow or getting a sharp edge without hurting the upper register endurance.
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joskelker · New Member Joined: 27 Jun 2013 Posts: 6

Thanks again to everyone who has taken the time to reply.

I have wondered if my mouthpiece was the problem, but I expect that even if it isn't the ideal mouthpiece, it is not the root cause of the problem. I play on a Schilke Symphony M1, but I've had this problem on every mouthpiece I've used.

I spent yesterday trying to find new ways to relax my embouchure, it was only the first day of trying so I'll keep playing with it for a few more weeks.

I find that when practicing lip flexibility I get tired very quickly, that together with the fact that my main problem is in switching harmonics leads me to think the problem is most likely with my air, unfortunately I can't work out what the problem is.

Now it's time to start another day of practice

LSOfanboy · Veteran Member Joined: 08 Jul 2018 Posts: 347

JVL · Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:07 am Post subject:

hello,
to the good advices given about embouchure (relaxed center...), i'll add horn angle, lip alignment, tongue movements, air pivot, etc.

Varying also velocities of execution.

About mpcs, Brassmusician, the opposite is also true : when/if needed, downsizing to one's real true ID will solve a lot of problems !
of course rim's contour too, and other parameters...

best

joskelker · New Member Joined: 27 Jun 2013 Posts: 6

Hi JVL,

Thanks for your reply. Do you think you could expand on your thoughts about the horn angle? I haven't really come across much about that. Also, what do you mean by air pivot?

In the introduction to his book Colins writes about the tongue being in the same position as when whistling. I've never had much success with that, but I'd be interested to hear if you have any thoughts on it.

Thanks

Dale Proctor · Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:17 am Post subject:

I don't know if you've tried the Schlossberg book, but it helped my flexibility more than anything I've ever tried. For it to work, you have to observe all the dynamic markings, though.
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JVL · Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:42 am Post subject:

hello joskelker,

horn angle will depend on your hand grip and/or head position.
it can help both with the good lip alignment and air pivot.

Bobby Shew teaches by air pivot, the way to direct the air downward in the cup for low register, gradually directing air upward while ascending to the high register.

the goal is to do the smallest and less adjustments with your lips, chops, tongue, whatever. You must do adjustments, but not like jumping from one note to another.

you must experiment, better with a good teacher...

best

EBjazz · Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:17 am Post subject:

Here's a cool book with a whole new idea on flex
https://bolvinmusic.com/product/flex-on-the-move/?v=7516fd43adaa

Eb
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joskelker · New Member Joined: 27 Jun 2013 Posts: 6

cbtj51

cbtj51 · Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:22 am Post subject:

joskelker,

I almost forgot to mention, the iPad friendly version of the Bai Lin Lip Flexibilities has as a bonus, wonderful recordings of how the exercises should be played. I find myself referencing these regularly and checking my approach to mimic that sound as much as possible.

Mike
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