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chuck in ny
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 Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:42 pm Post subject: buzzing into the upper register |
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i have done a small amount of buzzing and had difficulty getting much above middle C. it is harder to ascend on a mouthpiece alone, not having the resistance in the instrument.
i figured at the time buzzing was best in the lower register.
well. i just tried buzzing again and in a short amount of time am progressing above middle C very easily and quickly. the difference is doing exercises out of john daniel 'special studies', the virtue of which.... john gives careful and specific instruction on how to buzz, and provides a slew of exercises to get you up that half step and then another beyond that.
something to be said for following instructions.
i know a lot of you guys think buzzing is not necessary. each his own on this one. |
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NickD
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ljazztrm
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Joined: 03 Dec 2001
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:50 am Post subject: |
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I think, unless you are studying with a qualified instruction of a teaching like Reinhardt or Caruso, it is very easy for high lip buzzing alone to cause tension. I think that's one of the reasons Lynn Nicholson uses the rim.
Pops talks about this a good amount too. Lip buzzing in the pedal register, like he recommends, works the best for me. I never felt pedal tones did much for my playing and, then, after seeing players who would develop double/triple embouchures with them, and learning about Reinhardt's teaching of them, I stopped that practice. I do know several players who are great and use pedals in their routine though. Pedal lip buzzing, or playing the didgeridoo on the other hand, I feel is a great tool for teaching the chops to play with less tension. All the best, Lex
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com |
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deanoaks
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:16 am Post subject: |
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There are a lot of different ways to go about buzzing the mouthpiece to aid your trumpet playing. Without watching you buzz on your mouthpiece it will be difficult (impossible) to diagnose your problems. If I had to make a guess using the most generic assumptions about trumpet players and mouthpiece buzzing, you are either buzzing too loudly causing the aperture to blow open around middle C, or you are unfocused before getting to the C and that is simply where the lip tension is so great that the lips simply cannot vibrate anymore. Your issue could, of course, be something different, but as a general rule of thumb, this is what I have found to be the most common reasons for mouthpiece buzzing issues.
I am a student of James Thompson and I often will use his book for my warmups and technique/airflow maintenance. In the Thompson book, you start in the middle register (C4-C5) and just hang out in that area for several weeks before expanding the register of the mouthpiece work. This is with the hope that you will be training your lip: air balance to maintain maximum resonance and efficiency through simple long tones, upward intervals, and downward intervals. Over 18 months (give or take) the book hopes to expand your range from C3 to G6 on the mouthpiece. Some people never get to this expanded range and they are fine players. I have also seen the inversion of this where people can play these exercises no sweat but have an issue with tone production, articulation, intervals, and whatnot.
That is an unbelievably abridged version of one school of thought for mouthpiece buzzing.
I would be happy to talk more about that method if you'd like, but the one sentence answer I would provide without any real insight into your playing would be to buzz as soft as is comfortable and as you ascend to make sure that you are maximizing the glissando between notes to ensure that you are truly hearing the center of notes as well as training the lip: air balance throughout the range of the instrument/mouthpiece. Expanding the range only when you feel comfortable.
Godspeed! |
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chuck in ny
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Joined: 23 Sep 2006
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Location: New York
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| deanoaks wrote: | There are a lot of different ways to go about buzzing the mouthpiece to aid your trumpet playing. Without watching you buzz on your mouthpiece it will be difficult (impossible) to diagnose your problems. If I had to make a guess using the most generic assumptions about trumpet players and mouthpiece buzzing, you are either buzzing too loudly causing the aperture to blow open around middle C, or you are unfocused before getting to the C and that is simply where the lip tension is so great that the lips simply cannot vibrate anymore. Your issue could, of course, be something different, but as a general rule of thumb, this is what I have found to be the most common reasons for mouthpiece buzzing issues.
I am a student of James Thompson and I often will use his book for my warmups and technique/airflow maintenance. In the Thompson book, you start in the middle register (C4-C5) and just hang out in that area for several weeks before expanding the register of the mouthpiece work. This is with the hope that you will be training your lip: air balance to maintain maximum resonance and efficiency through simple long tones, upward intervals, and downward intervals. Over 18 months (give or take) the book hopes to expand your range from C3 to G6 on the mouthpiece. Some people never get to this expanded range and they are fine players. I have also seen the inversion of this where people can play these exercises no sweat but have an issue with tone production, articulation, intervals, and whatnot.
That is an unbelievably abridged version of one school of thought for mouthpiece buzzing.
I would be happy to talk more about that method if you'd like, but the one sentence answer I would provide without any real insight into your playing would be to buzz as soft as is comfortable and as you ascend to make sure that you are maximizing the glissando between notes to ensure that you are truly hearing the center of notes as well as training the lip: air balance throughout the range of the instrument/mouthpiece. Expanding the range only when you feel comfortable.
Godspeed! |
cogent thought certainly. this is where the careful explanation by john daniel shines. he advises to buzz with a small voice and very purely and go from there. i think in my first buzzing incarnation to have been horsing things.
some people have the touch for teaching. in any case my buzzing is hitting the double C and this is in very short order.
and with the joy of having these types of experiences, it is <fun>. mr. daniel has a lot of revelatory exercise in addition to doing the buzz. |
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ljazztrm
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Joined: 03 Dec 2001
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:36 am Post subject: |
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John Daniel's 'Special Studies for Trumpet' is a great book!! I have found that, when trying to lip buzz high without a qualified instruction, many times, tension develops. I gain much more benefit nowadays from Pops's low, loose pedal lip buzzing. I used to practice pedal tones as a kid and in high school but, then, I got into DSR's stuff and took a couple of lessons with Dave Sheetz in college. Stopping pedal tones definitely helped my own playing. But pedal playing with the lips alone, or didgeridoo buzzing, has been very beneficial to me in helping me play more relaxed. I know a lot of pedal tone players who develop 2, or more, embouchures from too much pedal practice. But I also know some great players who use pedals very successfully.
My own experiences with high lip buzzing was that I benefitted from it when following specific instructions - like from what Dave Sheetz taught me. But, also, doing lip buzzing, to mouthpiece buzzing, to horn exercises as prescribed to me by Laurie Frink and John Blount. Nowadays I only do some pedal lip buzzing and all my high buzzing is done on Lynn Nicholson's Reversible Rim on high C and above.
I'll have to check out John Daniel's book again to see what he says about lip buzzing..I'm sure he has a very good way of going about it. All the very best, Lex
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com |
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chuck in ny
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Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 3597
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| ljazztrm wrote: | John Daniel's 'Special Studies for Trumpet' is a great book!! I have found that, when trying to lip buzz high without a qualified instruction, many times, tension develops. I gain much more benefit nowadays from Pops's low, loose pedal lip buzzing. I used to practice pedal tones as a kid and in high school but, then, I got into DSR's stuff and took a couple of lessons with Dave Sheetz in college. Stopping pedal tones definitely helped my own playing. But pedal playing with the lips alone, or didgeridoo buzzing, has been very beneficial to me in helping me play more relaxed. I know a lot of pedal tone players who develop 2, or more, embouchures from too much pedal practice. But I also know some great players who use pedals very successfully.
My own experiences with high lip buzzing was that I benefitted from it when following specific instructions - like from what Dave Sheetz taught me. But, also, doing lip buzzing, to mouthpiece buzzing, to horn exercises as prescribed to me by Laurie Frink and John Blount. Nowadays I only do some pedal lip buzzing and all my high buzzing is done on Lynn Nicholson's Reversible Rim on high C and above.
I'll have to check out John Daniel's book again to see what he says about lip buzzing..I'm sure he has a very good way of going about it. All the very best, Lex |
les
i misspoke in my above post as i am practicing buzzing over high C and not to double C. this being done in short order is more progress than i had expected.
i am not going to have your set of problems with the high register because i am determined not to get there. mr. daniel goes to Eb or so in the buzzing studies and that is far enough. i would love to catch a performance of the off the wall stuff that you do.
john daniel, the quiet man, has some unique, idiosyncratic and perceptive exercises that encourage the embouchure to,,,, buzz more purely and create sound with less muscle and effort. like you he is another lex luthor among us.
you keep mentioning the subject i have to look into lynn nicholson. |
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ljazztrm
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Joined: 03 Dec 2001
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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Haha! Well thanks chuck! To me, John Daniel has taken several very effective techniques of efficient trumpet playing and combined them together. Not only that, his teaching on each technique is really thorough and explained in, imo, a very excellent, detailed manner. You would probably find parallels between what John and Lynn talk about in regards to trumpet playing, especially in the areas of efficiency. I find Lynn's rim buzzing and Dave Belknap's Schlossberg routine to be a very effective way to keep establishing, and increasing, my 'muscle memory' of using less and less tension in the wrong embouchure muscles when I play.
One 'signal' that tells me this muscle memory is being established is when I am just practicing/playing and I feel my whole playing mechanism is automatically engaging more and more of my core muscles (down around the whole abdominal/back area). This just happens in a totally unconscious way. I am not trying to consciously control my core muscles, or anything else. This engagement just happens as part of more efficient playing. I feel that most of us, from a physical standpoint, are re-learning to play. But it's in a way that our body's memory is realizing that it's actually easier to play the trumpet than we have been making it.
These days, I like to do some rim buzzing to start off with and, then, I go into the Dave Belknap Schlossberg routine. The rim buzzing and the Belknap routine really relaxes my chops and gives me that feeling that Lynn talks about (over time and consistent application of course), as well as Pops in his ‘tensionless playing’ ideas and John Daniel in his section of his book on efficiency.
What you said about buzzing more purely and creating a sound with less muscle and effort is ‘dead on’ as far as I’m concerned! Best, Lex
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com |
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chuck in ny
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 3597
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| just noticed in your signature, lex. how are you doing with the lynnzhorn? |
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chuck in ny
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 3597
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| deanoaks wrote: | There are a lot of different ways to go about buzzing the mouthpiece to aid your trumpet playing. Without watching you buzz on your mouthpiece it will be difficult (impossible) to diagnose your problems. If I had to make a guess using the most generic assumptions about trumpet players and mouthpiece buzzing, you are either buzzing too loudly causing the aperture to blow open around middle C, or you are unfocused before getting to the C and that is simply where the lip tension is so great that the lips simply cannot vibrate anymore. Your issue could, of course, be something different, but as a general rule of thumb, this is what I have found to be the most common reasons for mouthpiece buzzing issues.
I am a student of James Thompson and I often will use his book for my warmups and technique/airflow maintenance. In the Thompson book, you start in the middle register (C4-C5) and just hang out in that area for several weeks before expanding the register of the mouthpiece work. This is with the hope that you will be training your lip: air balance to maintain maximum resonance and efficiency through simple long tones, upward intervals, and downward intervals. Over 18 months (give or take) the book hopes to expand your range from C3 to G6 on the mouthpiece. Some people never get to this expanded range and they are fine players. I have also seen the inversion of this where people can play these exercises no sweat but have an issue with tone production, articulation, intervals, and whatnot.
That is an unbelievably abridged version of one school of thought for mouthpiece buzzing.
I would be happy to talk more about that method if you'd like, but the one sentence answer I would provide without any real insight into your playing would be to buzz as soft as is comfortable and as you ascend to make sure that you are maximizing the glissando between notes to ensure that you are truly hearing the center of notes as well as training the lip: air balance throughout the range of the instrument/mouthpiece. Expanding the range only when you feel comfortable.
Godspeed! |
deanoaks
i will look into the thompson book as it sounds very well executed. there is some pretty fine literature out there if you know where to look.
i am buzzing piano as you suggest and also striving to become more accurate with pitch centers. right now i am not much of a musician but having some enormous fun and working on plugging the holes.
the odd thing is that i have been able to work through all daniel's buzzing routines and can buzz to an F, which came only needing a couple of weeks of steady effort and careful concentration. there may be value in pushing that limit but i have little impetus to do so.
good advice thanks for speaking up. |
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ljazztrm
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Joined: 03 Dec 2001
Posts: 2681
Location: Queens and upstate, NY
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| chuck in ny wrote: | | just noticed in your signature, lex. how are you doing with the lynnzhorn? |
Hey chuck, the Lynnzhorn is fantastic! I’ve owned and/or played a number of very fine trumpets in my life, and a few of them have stood out to me as being really special. The Lynnzhorn is one of these. It really does blow more like an open blowing ML horn for me, rather than a big, large bore horn - but it still gets that big ‘Maynard’ sound with a shallow mouthpiece that I know from playing the MF Holtons. I would say it feels quite similar in blow to the Carol Blackhawk (which is like a Bach 72) that was my main axe before I got the Lynnzhorn.
I like to use the rounded slide, which is the bigger slide, for a lot of my playing. With a deeper straight V-cup mouthpiece and the rounded slide, the horn blows more like a flugel and I can do more flugel-like jazz inflections that I like in an easier way on the trumpet. For classical, and commercial stuff with a more ‘classical-feel’, I may put in the squared-off tuning slide. This makes the horn blow more like a Bach Strad, or somesuch other horn made in that style.
I consider this horn to be lightweight. It has a huge, bright sound but, when I adjust at the mouthpiece end, I can get a huge, dark sound out of it. I find I have to go a little deeper with my mouthpiece to get a darker sound than I would playing, say, a Bach Strad. But I feel I have found a very efficient solution for dark sounding jazz playing and endurance. I mean besides all the chop/efficiency concepts.
I feel that the Maynard style mouthpiece with the straight V-cup, meaning a rim with a very soft bite like MF’s 50’s/60’s mouthpieces, and a straight medium-deep-to-deep V cup gives me a wonderful dark sound and allows me a great deal of endurance playing all over the horn from the low register to above double C. I just find it more efficient as far as endurance and ease of play when we are talking about playing in a style where you want a dark sound and you are also using the extreme high register. I find this set up is more efficient compared to going to a deeper C, or C/V, style cup to get that dark sound. It just feels easier on my chops with my soft rim bite and straight deep V-cup. Actually, in thinking about it, I would say it reminds me more of a ‘flugel-feel’. What I mean by that is that I can play from low F# to G above double C on my deepest flugel piece and, as long as I don’t try to play louder than the mouthpiece is designed to play, the extreme high register feels just like any other register (except with more automatic core muscle engagement) and I can go in and out of it with ease - without consciously thinking about it. All the very best, Lex
_________________
Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com |
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chuck in ny
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 3597
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:08 am Post subject: Re: I like buzzing... |
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| NickD wrote: | I like to do a regimen of buzzing : lips only, then a ring, then mouthpiece, then leadpipe with mouthpiece in it then onto the horn. There is one thing I had to get sorted out, though. I never spend more than 5 minutes on these until I get to the horn. Buzzing without horn resonance can be a little tiring.
N |
thanks nick that was a helpful observation. i have taken to buzzing quite easily and can buzz to the highest note on a 61 key keyboard, D over DHC.
the goal however is to play cleanly to F or so and i am overdoing it in both range and time. trumpeters by nature get easily swept away in this or that mania. extreme high register practice can be done a bit here and there as a change up. |
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