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John L. Worley Jr
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Joined: 23 Dec 2001
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Location: Palo Alto, CA
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 Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:48 pm Post subject: Anyone know how to teach someone to flutter tongue |
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Hi Everyone,
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to teach a student to flutter tongue when they can't roll their "R's"?
John
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cheiden
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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Tip of the tongue needs to be very forward in the mouth. I usually very lightly contact the gum just above my top teeth. With a light enough touch you can get it to seal such that expelling air causes it to release and close fairly rapidly. Experiment with where the tongue touches the gum/roof of mouth, and the width of the tongue to get a very gentle seal. Too stiff a tongue and it will not oscillate.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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Joined: 18 Nov 2015
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:05 am Post subject: |
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If you can't roll your 'r's, you can't flutter. They're tongue tied. Short of surgery to cut the webbing, it ain't happening.
They can, however, learn to use the back of the tongue to achieve something approximating the same thing. It's similar to saying 'bach' in a thick, German accent.
It's not the same, but there's a few players that have made it work. |
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Turkle
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Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 2450
Location: New York City
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | If you can't roll your 'r's, you can't flutter. They're tongue tied. Short of surgery to cut the webbing, it ain't happening.
They can, however, learn to use the back of the tongue to achieve something approximating the same thing. It's similar to saying 'bach' in a thick, German accent.
It's not the same, but there's a few players that have made it work. |
That's how I have to do it as well. I can actually flutter, but it's just too clunky and weird and inconsistent for me. So I do the gutteral approximation and it works just fine when you work to get the sound right.
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JoeLoeffler
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Joined: 20 Sep 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:58 am Post subject: |
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It is a little difficult to describe. Cheiden has it pretty much.The only thing to add is that you need to make sure that they are moving a fairly strong stream of wind.
I usually have students start with the top of the tip of the tongue (not really the face of the “tip”) on the ridge just behind the top teeth and blow it out of the way with an aggressive stream of wind and then to hold tip up in the airstream to do the flapping flutter. Have them get the feeling for it without the horn and once they can do it, then transition over.
This has little to do with not being able to roll an r or with a tongue tie. This is simply something that Americans never need to do with their tongues in “normal” speech. With patience, it can be taught.
There is a definitely a difference in sound and specificity of musical control between a tip flutter and a growl further back in the mouth. |
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gstump
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Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 934
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | If you can't roll your 'r's, you can't flutter. They're tongue tied. Short of surgery to cut the webbing, it ain't happening.
They can, however, learn to use the back of the tongue to achieve something approximating the same thing. It's similar to saying 'bach' in a thick, German accent.
It's not the same, but there's a few players that have made it work. |
This is the gospel truth. Unfortunately I know first hand. My Spanish teacher was brutal. "GorDON, you are musician, why can't you hear how to roll your Rs.
Conductors would stop the rehearsal and ask me why I was not fluttering.
I remember 2 of my many wise guy answers:
1. If I could flutter I would be in Vegas.
2. It is genetic. The conductor looked at me and said..."Yea, I can see that"
Good times,
Gordon Stump
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cheiden
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | If you can't roll your 'r's, you can't flutter. They're tongue tied. Short of surgery to cut the webbing, it ain't happening.
They can, however, learn to use the back of the tongue to achieve something approximating the same thing. It's similar to saying 'bach' in a thick, German accent.
It's not the same, but there's a few players that have made it work. |
I suspect that there may be more than one reason someone can't roll their R's. I've only known a single individual who's tongue was barely able to reach beyond his teeth. His attempt to fix it with surgery he tells was extremely unpleasant.
I know a number of players who can't get the flutter to work and instead use the growl in the back of the throat. It's not as clean but usually suffices.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
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Last edited by cheiden on Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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starkadder
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Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 542
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: |
They can, however, learn to use the back of the tongue to achieve something approximating the same thing. It's similar to saying 'bach' in a thick, German accent.
. |
is that what is called a 'growl'? |
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Trumpetingbynurture
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Joined: 18 Nov 2015
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| cheiden wrote: | | Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | If you can't roll your 'r's, you can't flutter. They're tongue tied. Short of surgery to cut the webbing, it ain't happening.
They can, however, learn to use the back of the tongue to achieve something approximating the same thing. It's similar to saying 'bach' in a thick, German accent.
It's not the same, but there's a few players that have made it work. |
I suspect that there may be more than one reason someone can't roll their R's. I've only known a single individual who's tongue was barely able to reach beyond his teeth. His attempt to fix it with surgery he tells was extremely unpleasant.
I know a number of players who can't get the flutter to work and instead use the growl in the back of the throat. It's not as clean but usually suffices. |
Rolling the 'r' and fluttering are the exact same thing, except the tongue tip is slightly further forward on the palate behind the top teeth when you flutter.
I should clarify that not being able to flutter on the instrument may have more than one cause, but if you can't roll your 'r's or flutter without the trumpet, you will 'never' be able to do it with the trumpet.
Okay, I can't say 'never' but it's much more in the ball park of 'never' than 'you'll get it with some practice' I would say.
I know a few people, including my partner, and a good friend of mine that plays flute. They can't roll their 'rrr's at all. Trust me, they've both tried to make it happen.
Sometimes it's just better to spend the effort on developing something you can do.
Oddly, the people I've met who can't roll their 'r's can move their tongue left to right very quickly. I tried can't hardly do it, and they could all do it with zero effort. Some people's bodies are just different.
-- |
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Trumpetingbynurture
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Joined: 18 Nov 2015
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| Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| starkadder wrote: | | Trumpetingbynurture wrote: |
They can, however, learn to use the back of the tongue to achieve something approximating the same thing. It's similar to saying 'bach' in a thick, German accent.
. |
is that what is called a 'growl'? |
You can also growl with your throat by engaging your vocal chords. They can both be called growls  |
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cheiden
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8911
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | | cheiden wrote: | | Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | If you can't roll your 'r's, you can't flutter. They're tongue tied. Short of surgery to cut the webbing, it ain't happening.
They can, however, learn to use the back of the tongue to achieve something approximating the same thing. It's similar to saying 'bach' in a thick, German accent.
It's not the same, but there's a few players that have made it work. |
I suspect that there may be more than one reason someone can't roll their R's. I've only known a single individual who's tongue was barely able to reach beyond his teeth. His attempt to fix it with surgery he tells was extremely unpleasant.
I know a number of players who can't get the flutter to work and instead use the growl in the back of the throat. It's not as clean but usually suffices. |
Rolling the 'r' and fluttering are the exact same thing, except the tongue tip is slightly further forward on the palate behind the top teeth when you flutter.
I should clarify that not being able to flutter on the instrument may have more than one cause, but if you can't roll your 'r's or flutter without the trumpet, you will 'never' be able to do it with the trumpet.
Okay, I can't say 'never' but it's much more in the ball park of 'never' than 'you'll get it with some practice' I would say.
I know a few people, including my partner, and a good friend of mine that plays flute. They can't roll their 'rrr's at all. Trust me, they've both tried to make it happen.
Sometimes it's just better to spend the effort on developing something you can do.
Oddly, the people I've met who can't roll their 'r's can move their tongue left to right very quickly. I tried can't hardly do it, and they could all do it with zero effort. Some people's bodies are just different.
-- |
As a curious aside, I can flutter tongue with relative ease. Most any register and dynamic. But I can't roll my R's worth a darn. God knows I've tried. My dad's from Colombia for God's sake. And I tried to learn Spanish in school but after a few painful semesters, I still had the student sitting in front of me begging me to just stop trying because my relentless efforts (and failures) were driving him mad.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Trumpetingbynurture
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2015
Posts: 898
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| cheiden wrote: | | Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | | cheiden wrote: | | Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | If you can't roll your 'r's, you can't flutter. They're tongue tied. Short of surgery to cut the webbing, it ain't happening.
They can, however, learn to use the back of the tongue to achieve something approximating the same thing. It's similar to saying 'bach' in a thick, German accent.
It's not the same, but there's a few players that have made it work. |
I suspect that there may be more than one reason someone can't roll their R's. I've only known a single individual who's tongue was barely able to reach beyond his teeth. His attempt to fix it with surgery he tells was extremely unpleasant.
I know a number of players who can't get the flutter to work and instead use the growl in the back of the throat. It's not as clean but usually suffices. |
Rolling the 'r' and fluttering are the exact same thing, except the tongue tip is slightly further forward on the palate behind the top teeth when you flutter.
I should clarify that not being able to flutter on the instrument may have more than one cause, but if you can't roll your 'r's or flutter without the trumpet, you will 'never' be able to do it with the trumpet.
Okay, I can't say 'never' but it's much more in the ball park of 'never' than 'you'll get it with some practice' I would say.
I know a few people, including my partner, and a good friend of mine that plays flute. They can't roll their 'rrr's at all. Trust me, they've both tried to make it happen.
Sometimes it's just better to spend the effort on developing something you can do.
Oddly, the people I've met who can't roll their 'r's can move their tongue left to right very quickly. I tried can't hardly do it, and they could all do it with zero effort. Some people's bodies are just different.
-- |
As a curious aside, I can flutter tongue with relative ease. Most any register and dynamic. But I can't roll my R's worth a darn. God knows I've tried. My dad's from Colombia for God's sake. And I tried to learn Spanish in school but after a few painful semesters, I still had the student sitting in front of me begging me to just stop trying because my relentless efforts (and failures) were driving him mad. |
Really? That is very interesting actually. Hey, maybe I'm totally wrong, I just know everyone I've met that can't flutter can't roll their r's (or not well) and have never managed to work out how to do it into a wind instrument.
I'm open to being wrong here, but I have otherwise been quite convinced that it's just one of those things people either can or can't do.
*Shrugs*
I'll keep this in mind then for the future. Perhaps I'm not as smart as I think I am?  hahah |
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cheiden
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8911
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | | cheiden wrote: | | As a curious aside, I can flutter tongue with relative ease. Most any register and dynamic. But I can't roll my R's worth a darn. God knows I've tried. My dad's from Colombia for God's sake. And I tried to learn Spanish in school but after a few painful semesters, I still had the student sitting in front of me begging me to just stop trying because my relentless efforts (and failures) were driving him mad. |
Really? That is very interesting actually. Hey, maybe I'm totally wrong, I just know everyone I've met that can't flutter can't roll their r's (or not well) and have never managed to work out how to do it into a wind instrument.
I'm open to being wrong here, but I have otherwise been quite convinced that it's just one of those things people either can or can't do.
*Shrugs*
I'll keep this in mind then for the future. Perhaps I'm not as smart as I think I am? hahah |
I'm absolutely certain that I'm not as smart as I think I am. At least I think so.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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