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Question on Doubling up on Baritone


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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:11 am    Post subject: Question on Doubling up on Baritone Reply with quote

Our Geezer music organization has, among other type bands, two concert bands.
I am playing trumpet in one of them.
The other band does not have any Baritone players.
So my question is: Has anybody ever "doubled up" on a Baritone brass horn and how were your trumpet chops affected?

Also, I am still trying to start a BBB.
So I have the same question for doubling on a Tenor (Alto) horn.

Thanks for any positive feedback.

Cheers,
Harry
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I high school I was able to double on Baritone a bit with no ill effects. I also doubled some on French Horn without issue.

These four decades later I can still double on French Horn but it takes a week or two to get any good, a bit less to switch back to trumpet. My attempts to play trombone/sackbut at all were decidedly less successful.

I've got a good friend that doubles on trumpet and Tenor/Alto Horn with no problems.
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
I high school I was able to double on Baritone a bit with no ill effects. I also doubled some on French Horn without issue.

These four decades later I can still double on French Horn but it takes a week or two to get any good, a bit less to switch back to trumpet. My attempts to play trombone/sackbut at all were decidedly less successful.

I've got a good friend that doubles on trumpet and Tenor/Alto Horn with no problems.


Cheiden, thanks much for the great and good feedback.

Now to Ebay to buy a "cheap" Baritone Horn.
Of course I have no clue which of the "cheapy" horns are worth buying
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry Hilgers wrote:
cheiden wrote:
I high school I was able to double on Baritone a bit with no ill effects. I also doubled some on French Horn without issue.

These four decades later I can still double on French Horn but it takes a week or two to get any good, a bit less to switch back to trumpet. My attempts to play trombone/sackbut at all were decidedly less successful.

I've got a good friend that doubles on trumpet and Tenor/Alto Horn with no problems.


Cheiden, thanks much for the great and good feedback.

Now to Ebay to buy a "cheap" Baritone Horn.
Of course I have no clue which of the "cheapy" horns are worth buying


Any thoughts on any of these eBay horns?
https://www.ebay.com/b/Baritone-Horns/179014/bn_2311989
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ohnecael
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right now in HS I double up on tuba along side trumpet. My chops actually got quite a bit better from the different muscles worked in the process of having to march a tuba. The same can be said about playing baritone and working the muscles around you emboucher and making your lip muscles in general stronger, at least from what ive gathered from my old lessons teacher who did the same thing I did and my own personal experiences.

Enjoy trying to make more music on a different horn because its defiently different and more fun learning the mechanics of a whole new brass instument.
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry Hilgers wrote:
Now to Ebay to buy a "cheap" Baritone Horn.
Of course I have no clue which of the "cheapy" horns are worth buying

If you can get a Reynolds or an Olds you're getting a lot of value for your money. The Olds Ambassador baritones are very good and you ought to be able to land one for around $300.00.

I just did a quick search and there's a Reynolds Contempora baritone on there for $299.00 Buy It Now. It doesn't look beautiful, but those were quality instruments and there's probably still a decent horn there under all that unattractiveness.

I have played trumpet and bass trumpet (standard trombone mouthpiece) for multiple decades and find that playing one horn strengthens the other when I practice them both daily, which is most of the time.
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ohnecael wrote:
Right now in HS I double up on tuba along side trumpet. My chops actually got quite a bit better from the different muscles worked in the process of having to march a tuba. The same can be said about playing baritone and working the muscles around you emboucher and making your lip muscles in general stronger, at least from what ive gathered from my old lessons teacher who did the same thing I did and my own personal experiences.

Enjoy trying to make more music on a different horn because its defiently different and more fun learning the mechanics of a whole new brass instument.

Great input.
Thanks
Harry
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry Hilgers wrote:
Now to Ebay to buy a "cheap" Baritone Horn.
Of course I have no clue which of the "cheapy" horns are worth buying
Any thoughts on any of these eBay horns?
https://www.ebay.com/b/Baritone-Horns/179014/bn_2311989

I only ever played a school horn and don't even recall the make or model. I'll defer to the other posters who seem to have more direct experience.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doubling on the baritone should be doable. As you can see from my signature, I play bass trumpet as well, which is the same kind of change - though baritone will probably take some more air.

Playing bass trumpet (started about a year ago) tremendously helps as far as training your air support and intonation control is concerned. My trumpet playing has improved quite dramatically in these two departments - as a consequence my tone has gotten more stable as well. Moreover, I have also found that it helps my tounging technique. The larger mpouthpiece gives you some room to move lips and tongue but the response in tone quality and intonation are quite remarkable. Once I have figured something out on the bass trumpet, I "just" need to transfer it to the smaller trumpet mp.

Funny thing is, as there are quite some trumpet players in the city but trombone-like instruments are in demand, it seems to increase my chances of getting a gig. At the moment I only gig with trumpet and flugel, but this will likely change soon. At home I indeed find myself a bass trumpet player doubling on trufmpet. It is fun and I really like the way my horn plays (dreaming of a professional level horn, of course ).

The bass trumpet also trains your arm and shoulder muscles Not sure about the baritone there ...
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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I double on baritone/euphonium, it’s a lot of fun. It takes a little while to get acclimated to switching, but is entirely doable once you’re used to it. I play for money on trumpet and cornet all the time, while performing on the low horns is mainly just for personal enjoyment.

...I happen to have an extra (and nearly brand new) horn too if you’re still looking...
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KevinInGeorgia
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do it a lot.. Both On Euphonium and Tenor Horn.. It takes about 10-15 Mins to when I switch back to trumpet but it doesn't hurt my Trumpet Chops.. If anything it makes them stronger.. I would look at getting a 4 valve Euphonium instead of a baritone. This is a good deal that Just Popped up.. https://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-YEP-321S-EUPHONIUM-WITH-MOUTH-PIECE-IN-HARD-CASE/292725080457?hash=item4427c64189:g:Nk4AAOSwZ~tbmXW0

As far as a Tenor Horn I lucked Into an Older Couesnon years ago. but if you can find a Yamaha or Besson that would be perfect..
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Tony Scodwell
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:56 am    Post subject: Baritone doubling Reply with quote

Maynard always said his baritone or valve trombone playing refreshed his trumpet chops. He and Frank Hintner recorded a piece called "Jazz Barries" with MF on baritone and Hintner on bari sax. A blues piece that went up a half step each chorus through the entire scale. Another story on this was my weekly lessons with Arnold Jacobs, the tuba bottom of the famous Chicago Symphony brass section. Jake would pick up a trumpet and proceed to demonstrate something for me like the trumpet was his main instrument. Me, when I attempt any bigger instrument...I really shouldn't.

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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:10 am    Post subject: Re: Baritone doubling Reply with quote

Tony Scodwell wrote:
Maynard always said his baritone or valve trombone playing refreshed his trumpet chops. He and Frank Hintner recorded a piece called "Jazz Barries" with MF on baritone and Hintner on bari sax. A blues piece that went up a half step each chorus through the entire scale. Another story on this was my weekly lessons with Arnold Jacobs, the tuba bottom of the famous Chicago Symphony brass section. Jake would pick up a trumpet and proceed to demonstrate something for me like the trumpet was his main instrument. Me, when I attempt any bigger instrument...I really shouldn't.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com



Tony, thank you as always for these great anecdotes about major players (yourself included)! I had no idea Arnold Jacobs could play trumpet, and he was quite good too? Amazing!
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Denny Schreffler
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Question on Doubling up on Baritone Reply with quote

Harry Hilgers wrote:
Our Geezer music organization has, among other type bands, two concert bands.
I am playing trumpet in one of them.
The other band does not have any Baritone players.
So my question is: Has anybody ever "doubled up" on a Baritone brass horn and how were your trumpet chops affected?

Also, I am still trying to start a BBB.
So I have the same question for doubling on a Tenor (Alto) horn.

Thanks for any positive feedback.

Cheers,
Harry


If your tpt embouchure is fairly well centered -- great! If your tpt set is off center due to anatomical/dental considerations, too much time on a tbn-size piece will try to center your tpt chops, which can foul things up.

Some vintage baris can be great but if you're looking forward to a BBB, look at something like this ...
https://www.jimlaabsmusicstore.com/store/schiller-british-band-elite-baritone-compensating-silver-gold/

Three-valve and non-silver less than half the money.

The Schiller cornet, pocket trumpet, and two herald trumpets that I have played were excellent. I'd hope for the same for their other top-line instruments.


-Denny
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played Baritone through High School and Solo Soprano in Drum and Bugle Corps during the entire same period. I played Soprano Bugle on fairly shallow Mouthpieces like the Jet Tone Severinsen Model and J Parduba Double Cup #5 HJ Model. Transitioning was relatively easy if I shared my practice time between both pretty much equally. I have always thought that the larger Baritone mouthpiece helped my high chops immensely and seemed to accentuate my breath control as well.

I have played Valve Trombone as a secondary instrument at various times during my life as well and took the same approach of equal practice time on both to make it work well. If I had the need today, I would take that direction again.

Hope this info is helpful.

Best wishes,

Mike
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omelet
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is worth mentioning that while these horns are usually pitched in Bb, they are usually written in bass clef as non-transposing, which could mess you up when reading the music.
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Denny Schreffler
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

omelet wrote:
It is worth mentioning that while these horns are usually pitched in Bb, they are usually written in bass clef as non-transposing, which could mess you up when reading the music.


Isn't "Baritone T.C." still a part in the score for the full concert band, as it was thru the 20th Century?

And if the OP is aiming toward playing bari in a BBB, transposing treble clef is all that he'll see.


-Denny
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boog
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I double on Euphonium sometimes, in a situation similar to yours. We have a concert band and a jazz band in our local organization, and sometimes I play trumpet in the jazz band (which I happen to direct), and Euph in the concert band. I can do either fairly well, but to do both fairly well at the same time, I have to practice both instruments everyday. Sometimes this can be a problem, even though I am retired. Other things around my hacienda take up my time and attention, so if I have to play a trumpet solo, for instance, I forgo the Euphonium to concentrate on my trumpet playing. Switching is not a problem, but if you have to do both well, you have to put in regular practice time on both.

I found a nice 3 valve Getzen 800 bell up "baritone'' on ebay a couple of years ago for a tick under $300. It was not beat up excessively, just the usual denting from use, and had a couple of minor problems but I fixed them satisfactorily. The horn was "rescued" by an amateur tinkerer (like myself), and I had to redo some brace soldering...and I added pull rings on the 3rd valve slide for tuning on the fly. So...the nicer horns out there crop up occasionally, so be particular about the brand you buy. I have not tried the Chinese-made ones showing up on the market, so I cannot give you an opinion. I would stick to the name brands...you know the drill.

I can switch from treble clef charts to bass clef charts with ease, so this is not an issue for me. If you are a trumpet player normally, it won't take you long to get used to bass clef baritone parts. Some advice, memorize the fingerings for bass clef. Easier in the long run. Or, just dig out the baritone TC parts and use trumpet fingerings. No shame doing this. I will admit, my technical facility during sight-reading is much better when I am reading "TC" parts!

Good luck, and be discriminating when looking for a used baritone.
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cbtj51 wrote:
I played Baritone through High School and Solo Soprano in Drum and Bugle Corps during the entire same period. I played Soprano Bugle on fairly shallow Mouthpieces like the Jet Tone Severinsen Model and J Parduba Double Cup #5 HJ Model. Transitioning was relatively easy if I shared my practice time between both pretty much equally. I have always thought that the larger Baritone mouthpiece helped my high chops immensely and seemed to accentuate my breath control as well.

I have played Valve Trombone as a secondary instrument at various times during my life as well and took the same approach of equal practice time on both to make it work well. If I had the need today, I would take that direction again.

Hope this info is helpful.

Best wishes,

Mike

Mike
Thanks so much. That is great feedback.
Indeed very helpful.
Much appreciated.
Harry
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denny Schreffler wrote:
omelet wrote:
It is worth mentioning that while these horns are usually pitched in Bb, they are usually written in bass clef as non-transposing, which could mess you up when reading the music.


Isn't "Baritone T.C." still a part in the score for the full concert band, as it was thru the 20th Century?

And if the OP is aiming toward playing bari in a BBB, transposing treble clef is all that he'll see.


-Denny

Denny,
Thanks much for your great feedback. Much appreciated.
If I were at the play in a BBB, I would play Alto since Alto players are always hard to find.
In our concert band I would play Baritone. Our conductor has the software to “translate” from any key to any key. So I can get all Bary parts in trebble clef.
Again, thanks so much for your feedback.
Harry
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